RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,342
Posts: 5,502,319
Members: 25,118
Currently online: 703
Newest member: Ashanti

TrekToday headlines

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12

Rumor Mill: Saldana Gives Birth
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12

New Line of Anovos Enterprise Uniforms
By: T'Bonz on Dec 11

Frakes: Sign Me Up!
By: T'Bonz on Dec 11


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 12 2013, 09:13 PM   #16
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Caitians - height

Christopher wrote: View Post
Who says Caitians abandoned hunting?
IIRC, the first thing M'Ress, M'Viore, O'Hyr and R'Leez do, when affected by a virus in the bonus scenes of "Star Trek Log Ten", is to hide on the, umm, catwalks and prey on the rest of the Enterprise crew.
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13 2013, 10:29 AM   #17
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Caitians - height

I don't say the 2-3 meters for Caitians can't be possible, but it has no strong enough evidence that it is the only possibility or that this variant should be more autoritative than others.
Obviously not. But what I originally said stands: material exists that claims a relationship between the two felinoid species, and material exists that claims no such thing. If one assumes that the two species are related, then 2-3 meters is a better range than 1.8-2 meters, per onscreen evidence. If one recognizes that it's sort of futile to explain the similarities of Star Trek species by claiming that A1 and A2 are lost colonies of A (because the whole alphabet wouldn't then suffice for covering all the cases of B1 through B999 having shared characteristics, C1 through C999 likewise, etc), then Caitians are short and Kzinti are tall and that's it.

And I still think the simplest explanation for FASA's bizarre "2-3 meters" claim is that whoever wrote that page of the sourcebook didn't understand metric measurements.
That's downright mean of you.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13 2013, 01:01 PM   #18
KaRei
Ensign
 
Re: Caitians - height

Timo wrote: View Post
If one assumes that the two species are related, then 2-3 meters is a better range than 1.8-2 meters, per onscreen evidence.
What onscreen evidence you speak about?
The only onscreen evidence what I know of is that none of the shown Caitians was reaching even at least 2 meters.
There is evidence that Kzinti were tall to 3 meters as you shown, but not evidence of such large Caitians. Or is there?

The argument "Species_A and Species_B are related" is irrelevant for height of either of the species.
Look at this comparison chart of animal sizes. Notice the obvious difference in size between Lion, Cheetah and Jaguar. They are all felines having same roots, but it didn't prevent them to develop into different sizes. Especially notice that Cougar is about half size of Lion:
http://myuui.deviantart.com/art/Anim...hart-109707959

So IF one assumes that the two species (Caitians and Kzinti) are related, then there is still no way how to guess height of Caitians from Kzinti, or reason to claim that 2-3 meters are better.
(Caitians could be the Cougar and Kzinti could be the Lion from the example above).

Last edited by KaRei; February 13 2013 at 01:36 PM.
KaRei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13 2013, 02:01 PM   #19
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Caitians - height

There is evidence that Kzinti were tall to 3 meters as you shown, but not evidence of such large Caitians. Or is there?
Only in case of the "they are the same species, just split" theory.

If the two were split so far back in history that there has been time for them to evolve to markedly different heights (read: tens of thousands of years, barring special circumstances), their technology levels would probably be very different from what we see, as splitting would only take place after interstellar travel is invented.

...Unless we postulate that splitting happened long before discovery of spaceflight, and only the smaller or the larger variant went interstellar, leaving the other behind - but that would be putting even more weight on the difference between the two from the get-go, and would not really be part of the "the species are related" theory that e.g. Foster and FASA put forth. That particular theory explicates the "lost colony" concept that does not allow for tens of thousands of years of differentiation.

If the Kzinti of Trek were the same as the Kzinti of Niven, then of course there would already be great physical differences - the pink batwing ears and rat tails of the Kzinti, as opposed to the general purriness of M'Ress. But "Slaver Weapon" shows us Kzinti kittycats that are no more different from M'Ress than the two felinoids of ST4 are; the funny ears are lost in the generic orangeness of the animation, and we never see an exposed tail.

So, "related" in this particular storytelling sense means "biologically identical", just as with Vulcans and Romulans - a separation of populations for mere thousands of years at most, not enough to separate the species biologically. Save for whatever the species did to themselves, by biotechnological means. (Which do feature heavily in Niven's Kzinti, but not explicitly in the Trek version.)


EDIT: Actually, we do see an exposed Kzinti tail. And it's Caitian rather than ratlike. Although as far as plot logic goes, this picture is a mere coloring error, because there's no real reason for this tail to be exposed:

http://tas.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...weapon_131.JPG

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13 2013, 07:18 PM   #20
KaRei
Ensign
 
Re: Caitians - height

Let say this:

There is a small green alien in a film.
There is also a tall blue alien in the film.
You write a book where green aliens are offshoot of blue aliens and you make the green aliens tall as the blue ones in your book.
Would you say, that there is an evidence (or proof in other words) in that original film that green aliens are as tall as the blue ones?
KaRei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13 2013, 10:30 PM   #21
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Caitians - height

You'll drive yourself insane. Just choose a height your Caitian needs to be.
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14 2013, 02:43 PM   #22
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Caitians - height

There is a small green alien in a film.
There is also a tall blue alien in the film.
You write a book where green aliens are offshoot of blue aliens and you make the green aliens tall as the blue ones in your book.
Would you say, that there is an evidence (or proof in other words) in that original film that green aliens are as tall as the blue ones?
Of course I would. I have just co-opted somebody else's fictional realm and spun a story out of that, with the specific purpose of exploiting the elements in that realm. I now dictate the rules, and one of them is that the blues and the greens are related (in the sense of being the exact same species, just living in different planets). Under the new rules, small greens and large blues are indirect evidence of the existence of large greens and small blues. Not under the old rules, though - but I just outdated those.

Foster and FASA make self-consistent cases under their own rules, and can pervert any onscreen bits to their advantage there.

(This is essentially what the writers of "Homefront" did with the material on Joe Sisko that they got from "The Alternate", an episode where it was assumed that Joe was long dead... They took the bits they liked and used them as "evidence" that would support the latter episode's take of Joe as a fighting man who had defeated an illness. The writers of "The Alternate" just didn't write airtight rules on Joe Sisko, allowing the second set to exploit a loophole.)

You'll drive yourself insane. Just choose a height your Caitian needs to be.
Exactly. Your story, your rules. Although if you want, you can always use somebody else's rules as well. Or exploit the inevitable loopholes in them.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:05 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.