RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,140
Posts: 5,401,875
Members: 24,748
Currently online: 511
Newest member: ChrisCrash

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Time’s Orphan
By: Michelle on Aug 30

September-October Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Lee Passes
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 11 2013, 04:20 AM   #106
AllStarEntprise
Fleet Captain
 
AllStarEntprise's Avatar
 
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

It's kind of dickish to only use your discreet population moving ship only if you get something out of it.
^ speaking of wasn't there some treaty that forbade the Fed from using cloaked technology? But in INS they are openly using it. Was the Federation council just operating without it's rule book or principles during INS, or did Michael Piller forget this was TNG and there are rules?
AllStarEntprise is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 11 2013, 06:03 AM   #107
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

I'd hardly say they were "openly" using it under the circumstances.

I suspect the Federation Council knew enough to approve the generalities of the operation but was unaware of the specifics. Somewhat like ItPM.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11 2013, 07:32 PM   #108
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

The Federation did not have to remove the Baku to get at the rings.

Given that the Baku were on the Federation's planet on a extended camping trip, and originally got there be warp driven ship, it's hard to see the Federation objecting to taking them to safety.

However, if the Federation had no interest in the Baku's safety, they would have simply left them where they were when the ring was harvested. Letting the Baku "naturally" die from the heat.

T'Girl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 11 2013, 08:18 PM   #109
CorporalClegg
Admiral
 
CorporalClegg's Avatar
 
Location: Where my heart is.
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

So American Natives came to the continent on an extended camping trip? Nice.

Let I suggest their camping trip started before either the Fed or Starfleet. Kind of the whole point.
__________________
Konnichi wa!
CorporalClegg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 11 2013, 09:25 PM   #110
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
So American Natives came to the continent on an extended camping trip? Nice.

Let I suggest their camping trip started before either the Fed or Starfleet. Kind of the whole point.
But if the territory belonged to another power then was ceded to the Federation under the terms of a treaty, the Ba'ku are still squatting on a planet that belongs to someone.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 12 2013, 01:42 AM   #111
CorporalClegg
Admiral
 
CorporalClegg's Avatar
 
Location: Where my heart is.
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

But if pioneering discovery is your basis for sovereignty, then it's likely it's the the Ba'ku's planet.

We have no idea when the Rommis or Klinks stumbled upon Klach D'Kel Brakt, but it's not crazy to think it was after 2066. If both races are supposedly on a similar technical evolutionary trajectory as humans, we have to figure they were still, cosmically, infantile. This was only three years after Cochrane's flight, after all. Also, all non-canon references depict KDB as being some considerable distance from either Romulus or Qo'Nos.

The only other events we have to go by are the Augment coup was wasn't until almost a century later and the conflict which was in 2271.
__________________
Konnichi wa!
CorporalClegg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 12 2013, 09:51 PM   #112
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
We have no idea when the Rommis or Klinks stumbled upon Klach D'Kel Brakt
Nor do we know how many other parties possessed the planet and the region prior to it being the Romulan's territory. That particular area of the galaxy could have been trading hands for hundreds of thousands of years, as various major interstellar powers rose and fell from existence.

Did the civilization that the Baku originally came from claim the region at some point? There no canon indication of such. Given their numbers and lack of resources to do so, the Baku would seem to be incapable of doing so themselves. They certainly could not control the area.

At no point during the movie did the Baku ever claim (or suggest) that the planet was theirs.

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
wasn't there some treaty that forbade the Fed from using cloaked technology?
The holo-ship could have been the Sona's property, and not the Federation's. The Federation interacts with the Klingons, who have cloaking technology, without violating the treaty with the Romulans.

Commander Riker was briefly in command of a Klingon ship (with a cloaking device), no treaty violation.

T'Girl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 12 2013, 10:18 PM   #113
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
wasn't there some treaty that forbade the Fed from using cloaked technology?
The holo-ship could have been the Sona's property, and not the Federation's.
I'm pretty sure Data said it was a federation ship, hell the control room looked like it had federation style LCARS controls.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13 2013, 01:35 AM   #114
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Did the Ba'ku really need to say they calimed the planet?

They settled on it prior to the founding of the Federation.

So when the Federation found it, it was aready inhabiated by a seemingly non-warp culture as such the PD would apply at it would be ignored.

The situation is similair to an episode of TNG where Worf's adoptive brother was to transplant a group of people to save them. A clear violation of the PD. In INS they want to move a group of people to get at something, still a violation of the PD.

It seems clear from the movie that the council wasn't told the full story, and as soon as they had been updated they reveresed their earlier ruling.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13 2013, 01:42 AM   #115
CorporalClegg
Admiral
 
CorporalClegg's Avatar
 
Location: Where my heart is.
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Did the Ba'ku really need to say they calimed the planet?
No.
__________________
Konnichi wa!
CorporalClegg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 13 2013, 02:14 AM   #116
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
It seems clear from the movie that the council wasn't told the full story, and as soon as they had been updated they reveresed their earlier ruling.
IIRC the movie ends before it's made clear what the council's decision will ultimately be.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13 2013, 03:13 AM   #117
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Did the Ba'ku really need to say they calimed the planet?
Yes, it certainly would have helped their position. Not that I think i would have made much difference in the end.

It's not clear if the Baku even thought of the planet as theirs.

They settled on it prior to the founding of the Federation.
And?

... seemingly non-warp culture ...
Which wasn't the case. The Baku might not have possessed a warp driven ship at the time of the movie. But they were a warp tech culture. How else could the Baku have forced the Sona off the planet? How else could they have migrated there from their "birth world?"


The situation is similair to an episode of TNG where Worf's adoptive brother ...
It is much more like the episode Ensigns of Command. Where a group of people settled on someone else's planet, and needed to be removed for their own safety.

In INS they want to move a group of people to get at something ...
Once again, it wasn't necessary to remove the Baku to harvest the rings. The Baku were to be remove so the harvesting process would not harm them. But their removal wasn't essential.

it was a humanitarian move.

It seems clear from the movie that the council wasn't told the full story ...
How so? What didn't the Council know that was relevant?

The Council already knew it was a Federation planet.

The Council already knew the Sona have the tech to preform the harvest.

The Council already knew the rings will provide health benefits to many billions.

The Council already knew a warp capable group of migrants were on the world.

The relationship between the Baku and the Sona is a side issue. The health benefits are still there, the planet is still a Federation planet.


Last edited by T'Girl; February 13 2013 at 03:23 AM.
T'Girl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 13 2013, 04:12 AM   #118
CorporalClegg
Admiral
 
CorporalClegg's Avatar
 
Location: Where my heart is.
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
It's not clear if the Baku even thought of the planet as theirs.
They just called it "home" because they're quirky.

And?
And see: Palatine and Israel.


It is much more like the episode Ensigns of Command.
No it's not.

it was a humanitarian move.
In what twisted world is kidnapping "humane"?

The humane thing would have been to turn around and go home.

You're essentially trying to excuse a large force's persecution, subjugation and displacement of a smaller one to gain access to a natural resource. As a society, we don't do that. As a matter of fact, we tend to condemn it.

Trying to justify it by invoking some bastardized interpretation of the Bentham Pannomion holds about as much water as a thimble. Utilitarianism has its place; implying one's claim to absolute power is more significant and essential to anther's by simple arithmetic is not it, especially under the guise of "health benefits."

__________________
Konnichi wa!
CorporalClegg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 13 2013, 12:59 PM   #119
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
You're essentially trying to excuse a large force's persecution, subjugation and displacement of a smaller one to gain access to a natural resource. As a society, we don't do that. As a matter of fact, we tend to condemn it.
Bullshit we don't. We do it all the freaking time and for stakes far less than the Fountain of Youth. You think that if six hundred people were sitting on a cure for cancer in Whogivesafuck, Pennsylvania and the only way to get to it was to burn their town to the ground, that we wouldn't do it?

The Ba'ku were damned lucky that their whitey paradise ended up inside the Federation border instead of inside the Romulan, Klingon or Cardassian border. Those powers would've simply extracted the radiation and left the Ba'ku to a miserable death.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 13 2013, 02:05 PM   #120
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Did the Ba'ku really need to say they calimed the planet?
Yes, it certainly would have helped their position. Not that I think i would have made much difference in the end.

It's not clear if the Baku even thought of the planet as theirs.

They settled on it prior to the founding of the Federation.
And?

Which wasn't the case. The Baku might not have possessed a warp driven ship at the time of the movie. But they were a warp tech culture. How else could the Baku have forced the Sona off the planet? How else could they have migrated there from their "birth world?"


It is much more like the episode Ensigns of Command. Where a group of people settled on someone else's planet, and needed to be removed for their own safety.

In INS they want to move a group of people to get at something ...
Once again, it wasn't necessary to remove the Baku to harvest the rings. The Baku were to be remove so the harvesting process would not harm them. But their removal wasn't essential.

it was a humanitarian move.

It seems clear from the movie that the council wasn't told the full story ...
How so? What didn't the Council know that was relevant?

The Council already knew it was a Federation planet.

The Council already knew the Sona have the tech to preform the harvest.

The Council already knew the rings will provide health benefits to many billions.

The Council already knew a warp capable group of migrants were on the world.

The relationship between the Baku and the Sona is a side issue. The health benefits are still there, the planet is still a Federation planet.

Have you not heard of Generational ships?

As the planet is inhabitated by a group of people who aren't members of the Federation it is NOT a Federation planet. No doubt there are plenty of inhabiated planets that fall within Federation space whose inhabitants aren't part of the Federation.

If they knew they were warp capable why the need for secrecy, why not just ask the Ba'ku to move?

Normally when the government wants the land you own, they have to compensate you. They don't go around stealing it.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:25 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.