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Old February 11 2013, 03:25 PM   #16
Dal Rassak
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Re: Was altering Kurn's memory "Kahlessian"?

Anwar, as to that remark I disagree. Yes he was perhaps being intolerant. But most uniformed organizations have really strict regulations about jewellery, without distinctions between what's mere fashion and what can be deemed "cultural".
It's not like she'd be forbidden from wearing it when she's off-duty; and it sets up the final scene nicely where she accepts joining on condition she be allowed to wear the earring, and Picard agrees to it.

As for the original question on this thread<
I think wiping Kurn's memory was in a way worse than killing him outright. O.k. so he's still alive, but he thinks he's someone else. Replacing a man's identity is like killing the very essence of him. I found it awful when he looked his brother straight in the face and didn't recognize him anymore. Also his wishes should have been ultimately respected.
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Old February 11 2013, 03:38 PM   #17
Timo
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Re: Was altering Kurn's memory "Kahlessian"?

Riker was just being a jerk to Ro, that was it. It had nothing to do with violating Starfleet regulations or anything.
Exactly. Had Ro not been wearing that earring, Riker would have torn her a new one about her "non-regulation hairdo" or "slouching posture unbecoming of an officer" or "failure to properly address a senior officer when coming aboard". The regulations would exist, in theory, but Riker would never have enforced them if it had not been Ro Laren specifically who was standing where he didn't want her to stand - that is, within fifty lightyears of him.

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Old February 11 2013, 03:57 PM   #18
Ensign_Redshirt
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Re: Was altering Kurn's memory "Kahlessian"?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
If Worf was allowed (albeit reprimanded) to kill Duras, then why would he not be allowed to deal with Kurn as he saw fit?

Was it because Worf killed Duras on board a Klingon ship, and this thing with Kurn was on DS9?
Worf was not allowed to kill Duras. Worf killed Duras, and then Picard chose to only discipline him by giving him a stern speech about being a Starfleet officer. Legally, though, the reason it wasn't prosecuted as murder was that it happened in klingon jurisdiciton.

Similarly if Worf had taken shore leave and killed Duras on a Klingon planet it also would not have been prosecutable by the Federation.
Yet Worf killed Gowron on DS9 and he was never arrested for murder.
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Old February 12 2013, 10:25 PM   #19
Merry Christmas
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Re: Was altering Kurn's memory "Kahlessian"?

Dal Rassak wrote: View Post
But most uniformed organizations have really strict regulations about jewellery, without distinctions between what's mere fashion and what can be deemed "cultural".
That's not really the case. You could be restricted from wearing rings for decoration and fashion, but this would not apply to a wedding band. Because a wedding band isn't a piece of jewelry, it's a symbol.

It's the same with religious symbols, you can be restricted from necklaces, but if there is a religious pendant on a necklace that's different, because it ceases to be merely jewelry, it's a symbol. For safety reasons (in limited situations) you might be require to tuck it inside your clothing or remove it for the duration of the safety concern.
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Old February 12 2013, 11:12 PM   #20
TiberiusMaximus
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Re: Was altering Kurn's memory "Kahlessian"?

Forgetting for a moment about the Klingon values involved, I'm more concerned about the fact that Bashir went along with it. From a human, Federation, and Starfleet point of view, how could he possibly justify violating someone's mind in that fashion? Wouldn't that be at odds with his Hippocratic Oath?

I suppose he could say it was better than the alternative of letting Worf kill Kurn, but that would be a very weak argument.
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Old February 13 2013, 03:05 AM   #21
Merlanthe
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Re: Was altering Kurn's memory "Kahlessian"?

Dal Rassak wrote: View Post
Anwar, as to that remark I disagree. Yes he was perhaps being intolerant. But most uniformed organizations have really strict regulations about jewellery, without distinctions between what's mere fashion and what can be deemed "cultural".
It's not like she'd be forbidden from wearing it when she's off-duty; and it sets up the final scene nicely where she accepts joining on condition she be allowed to wear the earring, and Picard agrees to it.
Any regulation starfleet has toward uniforms is lax at best. Riker was just using that regulation as an excuse to act like a jerk towards Ro a fact which becomes quite clear a couple scenes later when they are assembled in the magic meeting room and lo and behold Worf has his klingon sash and Troi isnt even in uniform. Yet no one tells them off for breaking the very lax startfleet uniform regulations.
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Old February 13 2013, 03:23 AM   #22
Merlanthe
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Re: Was altering Kurn's memory "Kahlessian"?

Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
If Worf was allowed (albeit reprimanded) to kill Duras, then why would he not be allowed to deal with Kurn as he saw fit?

Was it because Worf killed Duras on board a Klingon ship, and this thing with Kurn was on DS9?
Worf was not allowed to kill Duras. Worf killed Duras, and then Picard chose to only discipline him by giving him a stern speech about being a Starfleet officer. Legally, though, the reason it wasn't prosecuted as murder was that it happened in klingon jurisdiciton.

Similarly if Worf had taken shore leave and killed Duras on a Klingon planet it also would not have been prosecutable by the Federation.
Yet Worf killed Gowron on DS9 and he was never arrested for murder.
I think the reaosn why Worf got away with killing Gowron is because he not only removed his comm badge, the symbol that identifies him as a member of starfleet, but specifically declared that everything he says and does in that moment onward is as a member of the house of Martok and not a starfleet officer.

With Duras he just removed the comm badge then claimed later that what he did was legal according to Klingon law so he got a stern lecture form a disappointed Picard. But with Gowron he made sure to specify that he was acting as a Klingon citizen and not a member of starfleet.

Also Gowron had been screwing up the war against the dominion for petty political reasons. Sisko specifically told Worf to deal with the issue. And all of the top Klingon generals as well as their new leader were all happy with Worf for deposing Gowron so starfleet had plenty of good reasons to ignore Word killing Gowron.
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Old February 13 2013, 11:24 AM   #23
Timo
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Re: Was altering Kurn's memory "Kahlessian"?

Ignoring the murder of Kurn would also be in Starfleet's interests: it would do them no good to stain the reputation of their only housebroken Klingon at a time when the role of said Klingon as an on-the-spot mediator was a crucial one.

From a human, Federation, and Starfleet point of view, how could he possibly justify violating someone's mind in that fashion? Wouldn't that be at odds with his Hippocratic Oath?
We don't know if such an oath is part of the 24 medical practice any more. It's sort of going out of fashion today already... In Trek, only the EMH has indicated being bound by it, and he may be considered something of an exception, much like even perfectly humanoid Asimovian robots are exceptions when it comes to murder 'n stuff.

Bashir has certainly chosen to do harm previously, firing his sidearm at various opponents or piloting a runabout in combat.

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Old February 13 2013, 12:38 PM   #24
MacLeod
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Re: Was altering Kurn's memory "Kahlessian"?

Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
If Worf was allowed (albeit reprimanded) to kill Duras, then why would he not be allowed to deal with Kurn as he saw fit?

Was it because Worf killed Duras on board a Klingon ship, and this thing with Kurn was on DS9?
Worf was not allowed to kill Duras. Worf killed Duras, and then Picard chose to only discipline him by giving him a stern speech about being a Starfleet officer. Legally, though, the reason it wasn't prosecuted as murder was that it happened in klingon jurisdiciton.

Similarly if Worf had taken shore leave and killed Duras on a Klingon planet it also would not have been prosecutable by the Federation.
Yet Worf killed Gowron on DS9 and he was never arrested for murder.
It's one of those grey areas, Worf acted within Klingon Customs. As I believe someone else mentioned, if Sisko was an example to go by, Starfleet might not have been to sad to see the back of Gowron who was risking the entire war effort will poorly conceived plans.

Besides the room the fight took place in could have been granted embassy status, gien that the leader of the Klingon Empire was there.

Though in the case of Gowron it's rather Ironic that Worf was responsible for both his rise and fall as Chancellor.
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Old February 13 2013, 01:01 PM   #25
Merry Christmas
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Re: Was altering Kurn's memory "Kahlessian"?

TiberiusMaximus wrote: View Post
I'm more concerned about the fact that Bashir went along with it
Doctor Crusher erased someone's memory on two or three occasions (or tries too) without the person's expressed permission. So it's apparently not against Starfleet medical ethics.

Deanna Troi routinely looks into peoples minds and then announce when she discovered there to the entire room, hows that for a violation of medical ethics?

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Old February 13 2013, 02:28 PM   #26
Timo
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Re: Was altering Kurn's memory "Kahlessian"?

We have to consider whether medical ethics extend to a medical practitioner's entire life, or just his or her practicing of medicine.

Bashir readily kills people when acting in his role as a Starfleet officer, general swashbuckler or private citizen. He's not a doctor all the time, nor does he pretend to be one: there is no equivalent of the Red Cross sign to make Star Trek medics non-targets in warfare, and no practical indication that medics wouldn't be well-armed combatants, either.

Crusher could be a tender and caring doctor most of the time - but when called to erase a memory as part of her general duty to protect the Federation, she can and will drop her medical persona, take up arms and inflict damage on the enemies of the Federation. (And then return to her medical duties as if nothing had happened.)

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Old February 13 2013, 03:45 PM   #27
Worf'sParmach
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Re: Was altering Kurn's memory "Kahlessian"?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
If Worf was allowed (albeit reprimanded) to kill Duras, then why would he not be allowed to deal with Kurn as he saw fit?

Was it because Worf killed Duras on board a Klingon ship, and this thing with Kurn was on DS9?
Yes, this all the difference. Worf killed Duras on a Klingon ship, out of Picard's jurisdiction. And since it was within the bounds of Klingon law, they were fine with it. Picard reprimanded him for doing it and was "disappointed" but that's it.

Worf tried to kill Kurn on the station, which I am guessing is against both Starfleet and Bajoran rules. What I found stupid was how was Worf planning to get away with it? Let's say he did go through with the ritual, then what? Hide the body? Vaporize it? What would have happened when Odo started looking into the whereabouts of the Klingon who'd come aboard then disappeared? If Worf had gone somewhere else with Kurn to do the ritual it would have been no big deal.

(It can be argued that Worf should have gotten in trouble for killing Gowron at the end of S7 on the station, but since Sisko pretty much gave him permission to do it and Gowron sort of provoked the fight, he got away with it)

I thought the conflict in Sons of Mogh was good right up until the horrible, horrible ending.
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Old February 13 2013, 03:47 PM   #28
Worf'sParmach
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Re: Was altering Kurn's memory "Kahlessian"?

To actually answer the question, I think wiping Kurn's memory was a very un-Kahless thing to do. It does not restore his honor, it only placates him in the here and now. When he crosses the river of blood, he would do so as Kurn and will still be dishonored. Worf might as well have let him commit suicide.

Another way to look at it is like this; What would Martok say about it? I bet Worf would never want him to find out what he did to his own brother. From a Klingon standpoint, it was a dishonorable thing to do. From a Starfleet standpoint it was a violation of the person's rights to do that without their permission.

Timo wrote: View Post
It would do them no good to stain the reputation of their only housebroken Klingon at a time when the role of said Klingon as an on-the-spot mediator was a crucial one.
I literally LOL'ed at that. This is how I'm going to refer to Worf henceforward.
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Old February 13 2013, 03:49 PM   #29
Timo
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Re: Was altering Kurn's memory "Kahlessian"?

Picard reprimanded him for doing it and was "disappointed" but that's it.
That doesn't ring true, though. If a serviceman today commits crimes on his free time, martial law might not be able to do much about it directly - but the rules and regulations would definitely cover this from another angle, and the serviceman would be stripped of rank, privilege and honor, and fired for not being a good guy during his off hours. This would definitely extend to the serviceman being caught of, say, pedophilia in Thailand, or armed robbery in Bulgaria, or whatever.

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Old February 13 2013, 03:58 PM   #30
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Re: Was altering Kurn's memory "Kahlessian"?

Timo wrote: View Post
Picard reprimanded him for doing it and was "disappointed" but that's it.
That doesn't ring true, though. If a serviceman today commits crimes on his free time, martial law might not be able to do much about it directly - but the rules and regulations would definitely cover this from another angle, and the serviceman would be stripped of rank, privilege and honor, and fired for not being a good guy during his off hours. This would definitely extend to the serviceman being caught of, say, pedophilia in Thailand, or armed robbery in Bulgaria, or whatever.

Timo Saloniemi
Maybe that's the way it is today, and perhaps that's what should have happened to Worf, but that's obviously not what happened in "Reunion." The conversation between the two concludes that because Worf acted on a Klingon ship and within the bounds of Klingon law and tradition, he's okay with them. And Picard just gives him a reprimand. Perhaps he goes easy on him because he doesn't want to lose his housebroken Klingon
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