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Old February 11 2013, 05:33 PM   #16
Chaos Descending
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Re: The Pope

The role of the church is not to please men, but to please God.

Those two goals rarely converge with regards to means.
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Old February 11 2013, 05:34 PM   #17
Squiggy Claus
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Re: The Pope

Chaos Descending wrote: View Post
lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
... but I hope they take this golden opportunity to move into the 21st century (or hell, the 19th would do) and try to get in step with the real world, rather than dig in and double down with the right-wing craziness that has pushed them further and further towards irrelevance and obsolescence ...
Humor me, what do you mean by this?

Ordination of women? Acceptance of abortion? Ordination of homosexuals?
They already do one of those things. I'll let you guess which one.
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Old February 11 2013, 05:39 PM   #18
Chaos Descending
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Re: The Pope

I'm referring to "official public acceptance of the practice", not "well, it sort of winds up happening and then a slew of kids get molested and suffer trauma all their lives".
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Old February 11 2013, 05:50 PM   #19
B.J.
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Re: The Pope

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
Ah, but that's Darwin, and they don't believe in him either.
It's kinda obvious you're not Catholic (I am), and this statement right here proves it. I'm assuming you're referring to the theory of evolution when you invoke Darwin here, and I can tell you that Catholics do believe in evolution. They even teach it in my kids' Catholic school.
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Old February 11 2013, 05:51 PM   #20
lvsxy808
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Re: The Pope

Squiggy wrote: View Post
lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
If there is to be a new pope, he or she should be one...
No need to be PC.

There will be a new pontiff.
He will be a he.

Accidental Haiku!
I wasn't "trying" to be PC. I was simply expressing my view that the role should be open to whomever best serves it, regardless of gender. I don't expect it to actually be a woman, at least not yet, but I do believe it should be a woman, eventually, and that there is no good reason for it not to be, ever.


Chaos Descending wrote: View Post
The role of the church is not to please men, but to please God.
But it doesn't seem to actually do that, does it? In fact, the way the media portrays it, the Church seems to be more riddled with human failings than the rest of non-religious society at large. A lot of that may be schadenfreude - we enjoy tearing down those who set themselves up above us - but it certainly seems to me that the Church is mostly about holding onto its own power, the same as any large and powerful institution, and not about serving God in anything other than name and appearance.


Chaos Descending wrote: View Post
I'm referring to "official public acceptance of the practice", not "well, it sort of winds up happening and then a slew of kids get molested and suffer trauma all their lives".
Well, that certainly seems to be coming dangerously close to accusing gay men of being child molesters.

Allow people to express their genuine sexuality in normal ways, and it doesn't come out in abnormal ways directed at the vulnerable and dependent people.


B.J. wrote: View Post
lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
Ah, but that's Darwin, and they don't believe in him either.
It's kinda obvious you're not Catholic (I am), and this statement right here proves it. I'm assuming you're referring to the theory of evolution when you invoke Darwin here, and I can tell you that Catholics do believe in evolution. They even teach it in my kids' Catholic school.
Indeed I am not Catholic, or religious in any way. In fact, I would pretty much say I have been driven to seething hatred and resentment of organised religion in all its forms thanks to the Church's constant attempts to portray my kind of people as subhuman scum who do not deserve life, liberty, safety or equality.

But why then do I hear about so many stories about American Republican politicians trying to force creationism into schools? Why do the majority of Republicans doubt evolution is real? Maybe those aren't Catholics, I don't know.

.
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Old February 11 2013, 06:07 PM   #21
Shanndee
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Re: The Pope

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post


If only they weren't so utterly unrealistic, all of the scandals that have befallen them would have never happened. But because they try to deny all that is normal in the human experience and force guilt over things that are completely natural, all those natural human urges come out in the ugliest, most destructive ways possible. But they are so entrenched in values which went out of date decades if not centuries ago that they just keep doing the same thing over and over, and it will never get better unless they change something very fundamental.

If there is to be a new pope, he or she should be one who can accept the real world in 2013 as it is, and that there need not be a contradiction between following a spiritual calling and being anything other than a straight white male. "Christian" does not need to be a synonym for "sexist," "racist" or "homophobic," despite so many trying to force it to be exactly that.

There is nothing wrong with trying to live up to an ideal, and trying to better yourself. But so few so-called Christinas actually do that, and so little of what we hear about the church embodies any of the values they claim to hold.

...

Or the fact that the Vatican would waste time punishing its own over having a different opinion on social issues - here - instead of putting their effort where Christ supposedly said they should - helping people. No instead they condemn and condemn and condemn, while denying truth and lying to cover up their own tracks. How does any of this reflect actual Christian values?

With the ordination of a new pope, the church has a chance to modernise and be relevant again. Because the way they're going, the Catholic Church is driving away its own audience. The world is moving on, and if they can't keep up, they will die. Ah, but that's Darwin, and they don't believe in him either.

.
Thank you for this entire post. I was raised a catholic, and I ran away, screaming, the nanosecond I possibly could. I received some comfort from the fact that my friend's father told me he understood completely. He admitted that "the catholic church has nothing to offer a young woman...in fact, its obsolete tenants force many women away". He and his wife will be thrilled that this man is leaving. They cringed when he was chosen, saying that his hard line would only drive more people away.

Anyway, the only way to bring many of those who have left back would be to totally overhaul the entire system. Allow priests (and nuns) to marry so that their "advice" for people dealing with family issues might actually mean something. Allow birth control. Accept homosexuals. Accept women as equals instead of brood mares. And that is just the beginning.

But none of this will ever happen. Especially since they are going out of their way to be even more hardline so they can correct the vision of the "progressive" John Paul !!.

UGH.
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Old February 11 2013, 06:16 PM   #22
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Re: The Pope

The first thing I thought of when I read the news was how impeccable timing this is. The Church is just about to start the Lenten Season and the Pope resigns. Hopefully they can select the new one before Easter Sunday, or even Palm Sunday.
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Old February 11 2013, 06:17 PM   #23
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: The Pope

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
But why then do I hear about so many stories about American Republican politicians trying to force creationism into schools? Why do the majority of Republicans doubt evolution is real? Maybe those aren't Catholics, I don't know. .
Most often, those aren't Catholics.

The Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches, as well as some of the mainline (as opposed to evangelical) Protestant denominations allow for theistic evolution--a position not to be confused with creationism/"Intelligent Design", as those are two entirely different positions.

Most often, when you see such anti-evolution stuff, it's Southern Baptist/evangelical/Pentecostal/nondenominational influenced, particularly given the influence those denominations have had on pop culture in the US and especially the South (thanks to the prominence of such figures as Billy Graham). Once you move away from Baptist-influenced denominations, I'm not saying you won't see some of that among Christians of other types, but it's quite a bit less frequent.
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Old February 11 2013, 06:25 PM   #24
Chaos Descending
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Re: The Pope

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
Well, that certainly seems to be coming dangerously close to accusing gay men of being child molesters.
Well, you're right. It's not fair. Some child molesters are straight, and some are gay. Just as not all straights molest kids, neither do all gays.
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Old February 11 2013, 07:05 PM   #25
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Re: The Pope

Chaos Descending wrote: View Post
The role of the church is not to please men, but to please God.
I don't think God wants them to hide the pedophiles amongst their ranks.
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Old February 11 2013, 07:42 PM   #26
Peach Wookiee
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Re: The Pope

Perhaps this will be a time for real healing within the church.

As for His Holiness, I will repeat what I said in TNZ. I will take him at his word and applaud that he chose to step down, recognizing his own frailties before he was forced to resign or suddenly died in office. I've seen a few elderly that wouldn't or couldn't recognize their limitations. Perhaps he will help others say, "I need to step down."
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Old February 11 2013, 07:45 PM   #27
Timelord Victorious
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Re: The Pope

Hound of UIster wrote: View Post
Chaos Descending wrote: View Post
The role of the church is not to please men, but to please God.
I don't think God wants them to hide the pedophiles amongst their ranks.
Doesn't matter. Believing in Jesus Christ their savior gets them the Go Into Heaven free card.
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Old February 11 2013, 08:18 PM   #28
B.J.
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Re: The Pope

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Old February 11 2013, 09:10 PM   #29
Squiggy Claus
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Re: The Pope

So, what do we call an ex-Pope? His Former Holiness? The German formerly known as Benedict?
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Old February 11 2013, 09:15 PM   #30
Jan
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Re: The Pope

Squiggy wrote: View Post
So, what do we call an ex-Pope? His Former Holiness? The German formerly known as Benedict?
According to CNN:

What will Pope Benedict be known as once he has stepped down as Pope?
According to the Catholic Bishops' Conference of England and Wales, Pope Benedict will return to being known as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger once he has stepped down as pope. He will be addressed as his eminence or Cardinal Ratzinger.
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