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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Dark Mirror.
Outstanding 23 48.94%
Above Average 17 36.17%
Average 5 10.64%
Below Average 0 0%
Poor 2 4.26%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

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Old February 11 2013, 01:58 AM   #16
ATimson
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Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I enjoyed Dark Mirror, much as I do most of Diane Duane's work.

Continuity problems be damned; I just shelf it as part of the Young Wizards universe now.
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Old February 11 2013, 02:41 AM   #17
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Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

ATimson wrote: View Post
I enjoyed Dark Mirror, much as I do most of Diane Duane's work.

Continuity problems be damned; I just shelf it as part of the Young Wizards universe now.
Nice idea. (For those who don't know, the book references an aquatic ritual that's an important part of Deep Wizardry.) Although you have to gloss over the way the book refers to Hwiii as an alien delphinoid rather than an Earth dolphin -- something which I suspect Duane was required to do by Richard Arnold or some editor or licensor who had a problem with the portrayal of Earth dolphins as being that intelligent (although the TNG Technical Manual's reference to the E-D having dolphin and orca navigational consultants aboard would argue that such a portrayal would've been perfectly acceptable to the show's makers).
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Old February 11 2013, 03:56 AM   #18
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Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post
ATimson wrote: View Post
I enjoyed Dark Mirror, much as I do most of Diane Duane's work.

Continuity problems be damned; I just shelf it as part of the Young Wizards universe now.
Nice idea. (For those who don't know, the book references an aquatic ritual that's an important part of Deep Wizardry.)
The Song of the Twelve? (That came up on Goodreads.)

I found the below blog post

http://pellucere.dreamwidth.org/230225.html

that takes note, with some degree of upset, the various Young Wizards references in Dark Mirror. These Easter eggs don't bother me, although they do make me want to actually read that Duane series.

Although you have to gloss over the way the book refers to Hwiii as an alien delphinoid rather than an Earth dolphin -- something which I suspect Duane was required to do by Richard Arnold or some editor or licensor who had a problem with the portrayal of Earth dolphins as being that intelligent (although the TNG Technical Manual's reference to the E-D having dolphin and orca navigational consultants aboard would argue that such a portrayal would've been perfectly acceptable to the show's makers).
Never mind the basic premise of Star Trek IV. It's not clear to me that they did a good job of depicting Hwiii as a being foreign to Earth, what with his friend who got podded off of the Carolinas and the very close identification of Hwiii's own multispecies cetacean civilization with the cetaceans of Earth.

Call it convergent evolution, call it transplantation by the Preservers if you must. It certainly didn't bother me, and actually was something I liked.
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Old February 11 2013, 04:02 AM   #19
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Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
The Song of the Twelve?
Yup.


I found the below blog post

http://pellucere.dreamwidth.org/230225.html

that takes note, with some degree of upset, the various Young Wizards references in Dark Mirror. These Easter eggs don't bother me, although they do make me want to actually read that Duane series.
That's a good idea. Be aware, though, that there are two versions of the first four books; not long ago, Duane revised them to be more contemporary (since, after all, the characters have only aged a few years in-story in the more than two decades the books have been coming out, so aspects of the early novels were outdated, like the computer tech, the lack of cell phones and their associated lifestyle changes, etc.). So you can choose whether you prefer the original versions complete with continuity problems or if you'd rather have the series feel more cohesive by getting the updated versions.

There's also a spinoff series which is less YA-oriented, the Feline Wizards novels -- definitely worth reading if you're into cats.


It's not clear to me that they did a good job of depicting Hwiii as a being foreign to Earth, what with his friend who got podded off of the Carolinas and the very close identification of Hwiii's own multispecies cetacean civilization with the cetaceans of Earth.
Yeah, it was just a passing reference to Hwiii being from another planet, and it clashes with the character's portayal throughout the book. Which is why I'm convinced it was a change requested in the revision phase and that Duane's actual intent was for Hwiii to be a real Terran dolphin.
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Old February 11 2013, 04:05 AM   #20
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Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

It's been ages since I read this one; sounds like a reread is in order!

zarkon wrote: View Post
and Hwii is awesome
This.
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Old February 11 2013, 04:17 AM   #21
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Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Be aware, though, that there are two versions of the first four books; not long ago, Duane revised them to be more contemporary ... So you can choose whether you prefer the original versions complete with continuity problems or if you'd rather have the series feel more cohesive by getting the updated versions.
Word of warning: the new versions (as far as I know) are only available as ebooks, and only from Duane's site. If you buy them from anywhere else (print or ebook), only the original is available.

(I've only reread the first and third books in their updated versions; they're tweaked, but they're still the same books at heart.)
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Old February 11 2013, 04:18 AM   #22
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Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

^Yeah, I thought they were ebook-only, but I wasn't sure.
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Old February 11 2013, 05:54 AM   #23
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Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post
That's a good idea. Be aware, though, that there are two versions of the first four books; not long ago, Duane revised them to be more contemporary (since, after all, the characters have only aged a few years in-story in the more than two decades the books have been coming out, so aspects of the early novels were outdated, like the computer tech, the lack of cell phones and their associated lifestyle changes, etc.). So you can choose whether you prefer the original versions complete with continuity problems or if you'd rather have the series feel more cohesive by getting the updated versions.
Thanks for the tip!

There's also a spinoff series which is less YA-oriented, the Feline Wizards novels -- definitely worth reading if you're into cats.
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It's not clear to me that they did a good job of depicting Hwiii as a being foreign to Earth, what with his friend who got podded off of the Carolinas and the very close identification of Hwiii's own multispecies cetacean civilization with the cetaceans of Earth.
Yeah, it was just a passing reference to Hwiii being from another planet, and it clashes with the character's portayal throughout the book. Which is why I'm convinced it was a change requested in the revision phase and that Duane's actual intent was for Hwiii to be a real Terran dolphin.[/QUOTE]Yeah. Why can't Preservers like cetaceans, too, anyway? Et cetera.
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Old February 11 2013, 11:39 AM   #24
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Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
bullethead wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ IIRC, the mirror universe uniforms were the same as their primary counterparts, except the collars were higher and the colors were darker (plus many crewmembers wore personal sidearms or blades). Alternate Troi was the only one who really wore a completely different uniform style, for obvious reasons.
IIRC, there was something about the guy uniforms showing off a lot of muscle or something, which made me think they were short-sleeved or something.
Basically, everyone--including the command staff, even Picard--had uniforms that exposed large swathes of skin. LaForge's uniform was compared to a stoker's.
Yep. IIRC, Duane described lots of muscle, somewhat at odds with the slightly portly-looking LaForge Prime from the TV series.

Another little tidbit I just remembered was that some crew members had metal fillings. Something small that said so much about the differences in philosophy between the universes. They built an overpowered, oversized Enterprise that ours would be no match for in a fight, but their medical technology was far behind that of the Trek we know.
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Old February 11 2013, 12:16 PM   #25
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Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

While we're on the subject of non-human Terran sapience (and forgive me for taking this further off topic), have the elephants ever been confirmed in Trek works as standing alongside dolphins? On that count, have Trek works ever featured elephants at all? Given that the TNG episode "New Ground" established the extinction of the white rhinoceros, were the elephants equally wiped out?

Would that mean the humans are considered to have a history of unwitting genocide?

Titan: Orion's Hounds mentioned Betazoid pachyderms as a dolphin-equivalent, so apparently Betazed has elephants just as it has humanoids. I suppose the Betazoids would have a lot less difficulty recognizing sapience; they could just scan and say "hello".

So, can anyone remember if the fate and intelligence of the elephants has ever been revealed in Trek?
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Old February 11 2013, 03:54 PM   #26
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Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

^As far as the Wikis are aware, elephants have rarely been mentioned in Trek and only as animals:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Elephant
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Elephant
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Old February 11 2013, 05:06 PM   #27
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Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post
^As far as the Wikis are aware, elephants have rarely been mentioned in Trek and only as animals:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Elephant
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Elephant
I notice that all the Memory Beta sources are older novels. We can yet save the elephants for the novel 'verse.
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Old February 11 2013, 08:32 PM   #28
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Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

This book is on my to-do list.

Why should dolphins and elephants be sapient? They don't use technology, don't build cities. Even if they were sapient yet eschewing technology, what would prevent them from communicating with Humans and starting a civilisation of their own, or joining ours?
The hard, unsentimental truth is: Humans are alone.

Edit: Prompted by this thread - just bought the book.
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Old February 11 2013, 08:35 PM   #29
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Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Markonian wrote: View Post
Why should dolphins and elephants be sapient? They don't use technology, don't build cities. Even if they were sapient yet eschewing technology, what would prevent them from communicating with Humans and starting a civilisation of their own, or joining ours?
"Communicating with humans" is easier said than done. Trek makes communication with alien races look extremely easy; in reality, it's going to be difficult if not impossible.
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Old February 11 2013, 08:57 PM   #30
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Re: TNG: Dark Mirror by Diane Duane Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
While we're on the subject of non-human Terran sapience (and forgive me for taking this further off topic), have the elephants ever been confirmed in Trek works as standing alongside dolphins? On that count, have Trek works ever featured elephants at all? Given that the TNG episode "New Ground" established the extinction of the white rhinoceros, were the elephants equally wiped out?
If there ever will be, I like to think they'll look like this:



Markonian wrote: View Post
This book is on my to-do list.

Why should dolphins and elephants be sapient? They don't use technology, don't build cities. Even if they were sapient yet eschewing technology, what would prevent them from communicating with Humans and starting a civilisation of their own, or joining ours?
The hard, unsentimental truth is: Humans are alone.

Edit: Prompted by this thread - just bought the book.
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