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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old February 10 2013, 09:33 PM   #61
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

I do imagine Section 31 operating like a terrorist cell, like the organization detailed in the movie Battle of Algiers. So if one person is captured, all they know about is their direct superior and their direct inferiors.

How do we know the things Section 31 has done other than trying to wipe out the Founders and putting Federation sympathizers in Romulan positions of power? They must be competent because they haven't been discovered, but how do you know they weren't, for instance, behind Admiral Lleyton's assignment?

And, you're totally right about Cerberus but I'm speaking more of what they appeared to be in the second game. I believe, for instance, that they absolutely would run medical tests on people against their will in order to cure diseases or engineer biological weapons. They would rather capture a weapon of mass destruction than destroy it.
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Old February 10 2013, 09:53 PM   #62
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

bullethead wrote: View Post
Also, when it comes to interstellar politics, things that are in the best interests of the organization (peace with the Romulans, a diminished Dominion threat) tend to be in the best interests of the people as well.
Section 31 acts in its own best interest. Nothing else. They claim to serve the Federation, but if they did that, then by definition they would answer TO the Federation. They don't do that. They quite literally do whatever they want.

An organization can't be acting in the best interests of any people or government if it doesn't hold itself accountable to that same people or government.
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Old February 10 2013, 10:25 PM   #63
Rush Limborg
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
bullethead wrote: View Post
Also, when it comes to interstellar politics, things that are in the best interests of the organization (peace with the Romulans, a diminished Dominion threat) tend to be in the best interests of the people as well.
Section 31 acts in its own best interest. Nothing else. They claim to serve the Federation, but if they did that, then by definition they would answer TO the Federation.
Problem with the line of reasoning:

"The Federation" is not a department in the chain of command. To "answer to the Federation" can entail many different meanings. What does it mean to "answer to the Federation"?

They don't do that. They quite literally do whatever they want.

An organization can't be acting in the best interests of any people or government if it doesn't hold itself accountable to that same people or government.
Not neccesarily. How many times has there been the storyline--in fiction and in real life--of someone who takes action to benefit someone else (a donation, saving a life, etc.)--and does not reveal their identity? There is little accountability there.
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Old February 10 2013, 11:02 PM   #64
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
They claim to serve the Federation, but if they did that, then by definition they would answer TO the Federation.
That makes no sense. Because one doesn't necessate the other. You're implying that only the Federation's governing body can work to the Federation's best interests. Or at least what they see as it's best interests.


JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
They must be competent because they haven't been discovered, but how do you know they weren't, for instance, behind Admiral Lleyton's assignment?
The argument can be made that if S31 were involved, what happen would have been more subtle and more successful. Ultimately the coup was badly conceived and a failure.

Would S31 step fully out into the light, engaging in a open military coup? Even through a proxy like the Admiral?

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Old February 11 2013, 06:55 PM   #65
Rush Limborg
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

^Agreed. Section 31 doesn't strike me as the kind of organization that would support such a radical change in the Federation infrastructure. They deal in "puppets/moles", not overhauls.
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Old June 4 2013, 10:49 PM   #66
Enterprise1981
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

They deal in "puppets/moles", not overhauls.
That sounds about right. With that in mind, 31 only assassinated Zife and his chief-of-staff only after Zife stepped down as UFP President. As far as the public was concerned, they mysteriously disappeared. Or in the case of my fan-fiction universe, 31 simply made it look like someone else assassinated him.
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Old June 6 2013, 02:20 AM   #67
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

T'Girl wrote: View Post
You're implying that only the Federation's governing body can work to the Federation's best interests. Or at least what they see as it's best interests.
Yes, I pretty much am. How can Section 31 claim to be working in the Federation's interests if they are so secret? Secrecy implies corruption.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
What does it mean to "answer to the Federation"?
It means, to be part of the actual, recognized governmental structure - out in the open, subject to public scrutiny, and ultimately answering TO the government and public.

If Section 31 really was truly looking out for the Federation, and not for themselves, they'd work within the system. In fact, they'd BE the system. They would be accountable to the government, there would be oversight. None of those things applies. Section 31 quite literally does whatever it wants. By definition, then, they are only out for themselves.
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Old June 6 2013, 02:41 AM   #68
bullethead
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
You're implying that only the Federation's governing body can work to the Federation's best interests. Or at least what they see as it's best interests.
Yes, I pretty much am. How can Section 31 claim to be working in the Federation's interests if they are so secret? Secrecy implies corruption.
Um... no. Secrecy implies that you don't want someone to find out about something for a variety of reasons. That might include corruption, but it is not necessarily because of corruption.

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
What does it mean to "answer to the Federation"?
It means, to be part of the actual, recognized governmental structure - out in the open, subject to public scrutiny, and ultimately answering TO the government and public.

If Section 31 really was truly looking out for the Federation, and not for themselves, they'd work within the system. In fact, they'd BE the system. They would be accountable to the government, there would be oversight. None of those things applies. Section 31 quite literally does whatever it wants. By definition, then, they are only out for themselves.
That assumes that the system is operating efficiently and is run by competent people, which is highly debatable in either Trek timeline. There's also the fact that not operating within the system means that the Federation's hands are clean if Section 31 has to do something very dirty or mess up. Also, if the Federation Council/Starfleet Command gets infiltrated by mind-controlling aliens/evil clones/evil alternate universe counterparts/etc... (again), then Section 31 has a better chance of fighting them if the Enterprise crew/whoever are the designated heroes are aren't around to save the day, because less people knowing about Section 31 means the enemy might not infiltrate Section 31 (or spend less resources on it, depending on who they replace/takeover).
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Old June 6 2013, 02:50 AM   #69
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

bullethead wrote: View Post
Secrecy implies that you don't want someone to find out about something for a variety of reasons.
Like you have something to hide...
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Old June 6 2013, 09:18 PM   #70
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

In fiction one can make S31 or similar secretive organizations as competent and altruistic as one wishes.
In real life - accountability is the ONLY means known to mankind to prevent abuse and incompetence.
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Old June 6 2013, 10:10 PM   #71
LobsterAfternoon
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Re: Section 31 after DS9

While accountability is good, it's difficult to say that section 31 is a net good or net bad for the Federation.
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