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Old January 29 2013, 08:29 PM   #151
paudemge
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
hux wrote: View Post
When i watched TNG, i always wondered why there would be waiters? Picard tells the unfrozen people from earths past that in the future, people don't do things for material gain but instead they do things to better themselves so presumably everyone is doing what they want with their lives and there is no need for money...........but wait, that means someone actually wants to be a waiter?? what....because this betters them (as Picard claimed).....really!!.....i mean sure, running a star ship is a challenge but hey, waiting on him would be just as much of a challenge.....it sure would sir......bollocks!

Like in all societies.....the rich will always need someone to bring them their drinks....in Trek, they solve this by pretending it's what people want to do with their lives.....people want to bring Picard his drinks while he explores the unknown because ya know....it's a challenge .......when i see someone working an 8 hour shift in Tesco, i don't kid myself that they are doing it to better themselves or that they want to be there but for some reason Trek expects us to buy this

That's why i liked the Maquis....they were the first thing in Trek to suggest that this Utopian society was not all it was cracked up to be
Well, consider this:

"Certain jobs are regarded as so distasteful, that they are filled by a permanent rotation system in which almost everyone serves his turn; the most notable instance is work in the kitchen and dining room, such as cooking, dishwashing, and serving..." Melford Spiro - Kibbutz: Venture in Utopia

"In the absence of private property, and of money, it is obvious that the profit motive does not operate in this society." Melford Spiro - Kibbutz: Venture in Utopia.

Think of that guy in STAR TREK 2 vacuuming the floor in the background while Spock and Kirk are chatting. Who's to say he does that full time? Maybe it was just his turn that week to clean the floors?

Also, as I pointed out in the past, Revolutionary Spain abolished money but their were still waiters doing their jobs. George Orwell and others noted this.

"Foreigners who gave a tip had it politely returned with an explanation of why the practice corrupted both the giver and the receiver." The Spanish Civil War by A. Beevor.
So people are slaves to the State, they have to do there turn at the distasteful jobs.
What happens when on your day to clean the floors, you do a poor job of cleaning the floors? Or just sit there and text you friends?

Would the schools at this time also be ran the same way , so that they don't give out grades and everybody gets the same grade?
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Old January 31 2013, 02:44 AM   #152
TheGoodNews
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

[/QUOTE]

So people are slaves to the State, they have to do there turn at the distasteful jobs.
What happens when on your day to clean the floors, you do a poor job of cleaning the floors? Or just sit there and text you friends?

Would the schools at this time also be ran the same way , so that they don't give out grades and everybody gets the same grade?[/QUOTE]

You're projecting your own experiences with your society onto a completely different social model. Niether anarchism nor the kibbutzim are statists societies. The idea of rotating task is to de-stratify society not the reverse. Also, the same people doing menial tasks would also be rotated into administrative tasks at their trade union and local committee as their turn comes up. So everyone in society takes equal part in the management of society not a priviledged ruling class of bureaucrats, capitalists and specialists, which is what we now have under our existing system. The prevailing myth in present society that some, not all, buy into is that we all have an equal chance and that merit ultimately determines your station in life when in reality the overwhelming majority of people (rich or poor) are born into their positions and rarely transcend them. Are you one of those rare exceptions?

Granted some positions can't be rotated; engineers, doctors (Scotty & McCoy), etc. Other red shirts excepted, of course.

"The only exemptions from this rotation are the ill, the aged, and teachers. An inconvenient job such as that of night watchman is also filled by a rotation system, the period of service being for two weeks." Kibbutz: Venture in Utopia by Melford Spiro

Re: school grades, again you're projecting your value system, based on your cultural experiences, onto others. Different societies/cultures/economic systems will use different methods. Does that make your's or their's superior?
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Old January 31 2013, 03:17 AM   #153
TheGoodNews
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

[/QUOTE]
That's why the regions under anarchist control needed to implement very soon a rationing system, yes?
Because the system was going so well. And not because they were running out of products/etc.[/QUOTE]

But what are you basing your assertions on? There was a war going on. Rationing was used in the U.S. during WW II, too.

Also what about this:

"I have described how we were armed, or not armed, on the Aargon front. There is very little dobut that arms were deliberately withheld lest too many of them should get into the hands of the Anarchists...What was more important was that once the war had been narrowed down to a 'war for democracy' it became impossible to make any large scale appeal for working class aid abroad." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia

"As a matter of fact, though I had not noticed it till now, it was the same everywhere. The Civil Guards and Carabineros, who were not intended for the front at all, were better armed and far better clad than ourselves." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia

"Thirdly-though this was not generally known at the time-the Anarchist leaders feared that if things went beyond a certain point and the workers took possession of the town, as they were perhaps in a position to do on 5 May, there would be foreign intervention. A British cruiser and two British destroyers had closed in upon the harbour, and no doubt there were other warships not far away. The English newspapers gave it out that these ships were proceeding to Barcelona 'to protect British interests,' but in fact they made no move to do so; that is, they did not land any men or take off any refugees. There can be no certainty about this, but it was at least inherently likley that the British Government, which had not raised a finger to save the Spanish Government from Franco, would intervene quickly enough to save it from its own working class." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia

"There was no unemployment, and the price of living was still extremely low; you saw very few conspicuously destitute people, and no beggars except the gypsies." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia

Remember, Orwell was there. Also:

"In spite of all the monumental difficulties, one big fact stands out: in Alcoy 20,000 workers organized in their syndicates administered production, coordinated economic activities, and proved that industry can be operated better in every respect than under capitalism, while still assuring freedom and justice for all...." The Anarchist Collectives by Sam Dolgoff.

It's called Workers' Self-Management. And why should that be any less viable than capitalist or state management of industry?

"Okay, you've rationalized your economy to the point where you have no unemployment, poverty or depressions...." Ralph Offenhouse to Capt. Picard - Debtor's Planet (a ST:TNG novella)
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Old January 31 2013, 03:21 AM   #154
Star Wolf
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

The good news since you can't get private messages yet when you 'quote" the first function does not have a slash mark so using parenthesis it will be (quote) and afterwards (/quote)
thus a box will show in the final post
. Or you can use the button at the bottom of the post
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Old January 31 2013, 03:44 AM   #155
T'Girl
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
the same people doing menial tasks would also be rotated into administrative tasks
Isn't this making the assumption that someone who can perform the former, can also perform the latter? It very obviously would prove chaotic for the business as multiple individuals, with their various management styles and skill sets, rotated in and out of the leadership position.

Giving "everyone a turn" sound like sometime out of a preschool daycare.

Different societies/cultures/economic systems will use different methods. Does that make your's or their's superior?
The sign of a superior system, is one that has been shown to work over a extended period of time. Our current system might not be perfect, and it might not make you feel warm and fuzzy inside, but it works. Even when it occasional get knocked back a few steps, it recovers after a few years and continues onward.

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Old February 7 2013, 01:08 AM   #156
TheGoodNews
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

T'Girl, we have the best plutocracy money can buy. Ask Dwight Eisenhower:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY

Anyway, I think it's safe to say that the revolutionary workers of the anarcho-syndicalist CNT knew who the best candidates were for their factory councils and local committees, who were recallable at all times. It's called direct democracy and allows the citizenry direct control over the decisions affecting their lives rather than a remote bureaucracy or aristocracy and dates as far back as the ecclesia in ancient Athens.

Murray Bookchin describes it in his book Post-Scarcity Anarchism under the essay "The Forms of Freedom."
http://www.lust-for-life.org/Lust-Fo...yAnarchism.pdf

"The agenda of the ecclesia was prepared by a body called the Council of 500. Lest the council gain any authority over the ecclesia, the Athenians carefully circumscribed its composition and functions. Chosen by lot from rosters of citizens who, in turn, were elected annually by the tribes, the Council was divided into ten subcommittees, each of which was on duty for a tenth of the year. Every day a president was selected by lot from among fifty members of the subcommittee that was on duty to the polis. During his twenty-four hours of office, the Council's president held the state seal and keys to the citadel and public archives and functioned as acting head of the country. Once he had been chosen, he could not occupy that position again." Post-Scarcity Anarchism by Murray Bookchin from his essay The Forms of Freedom.

The problem with the ecclesia was that it only allowed Athenian men who weren't slaves. For direct democracy in a modern society Bookchin cites the Spanish Revolution:

"Perhaps the only instance where a system of working class self-management succeeded as a mode of class organization was in Spain, where anarcho-syndicalism attracted a large number of workers and peasants to its banner. The Spanish anarcho-syndicalists consciously sought to limit the tendency toward centralization. The CNT (Confederacion Nacional del Trabajo), the large anarcho-syndicalist union in Spain, created a dual organization with an elected committee system to act as a control on local bodies and national congresses. The assemblies had the power to revoke their delegates to the council and countermand council decisions. For all practical purposes the 'higher' bodies of the CNT functioned as coordinating bodies. Let there be no mistake about the effectiveness of this scheme of organization: it imparted to each member of the CNT a weighty responsibility, a sense of direct, immediate and personal influence in the activities and policies of the union. This responsibility was exercised with a high mindedness that made the CNT the most militant as well as the largest revolutionary movement in Europe during the interwar years." Post-Scarcity Anarchism by Murray Bookchin from his essay The Forms of Freedom.

And this mode of horizontal, decentralized organizing was also advocated by the Enrages and Situationists during the student/worker demonstrations of May 1968:

"At the present moment, with the power they hold and with the parties and unions being what they are, the workers have no other choice but to organize themselves in unitary rank-and-file committees directly taking over the economy and all aspects of the reconstruction of social life, asserting their autonomy vis-a-vis any sort of political or unionist leadership, ensuring their self-defense, and federating with each other regionally and nationally. In so doing they will become the sole real power in the country, the power of workers councils.The only alternative is to return to their passivity and go back to watching television." Address to All Workers (Situationist International anthology).

Data: (regarding television) "That particular form of entertainment did not last much beyond the year 2040."
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Old February 7 2013, 01:20 AM   #157
TheGoodNews
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?



Another thing, T'Girl. My point in mentioning the rotation of menial tasks was to offer a possible explanation for why someone in the moneyless 23rd century would even do those types of jobs. The man vacuuming the floor in Star Trek 2 for example. (Maybe the roomba wasn't working that day?) This question keeps popping up in Star Trek forums like this. My point was that's what the anarchists and kibbutzniks tried. If a task can't be eliminated nor automated then it must either be delegated or rotated. What other solution is possible? Especially in a moneyless society like the Federation.

"Suppose it turns out that there is some residue of work which really no one wants to do, whatever that may be-okay, then I say that the residue of work must be equally shared, and beyond that people will be free to exercise their talents as they see fit." Noam Chomsky - Chomsky on Anarchism.
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Old February 7 2013, 06:22 AM   #158
Sci
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
The sign of a superior system, is one that has been shown to work over a extended period of time. Our current system might not be perfect, and it might not make you feel warm and fuzzy inside, but it works.
That's a very optimistic assessment.
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Old February 9 2013, 01:24 AM   #159
TheGoodNews
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

Indeed, evidently some people think the plutocrats have their best interest at heart. Never mind needless economic disparity, geo-political crises or ecological catastrophes. Just go shopping or watch t.v. and believe everything they taught you in civics class.
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Old February 9 2013, 04:16 AM   #160
indolover
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

lol..

Look people, it's FICTION. Not everything in a fictional artistic work must be realistic or even plausible.

IMO, it's best to see it as an artistic licence and leave it at that. People who demand excessive realism in fictional works frankly miss the point. It's like reading Animal Farm and thinking "this book is bullshit, since talking animals don't exist!"
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Old February 9 2013, 08:10 AM   #161
Edit_XYZ
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
Indeed, evidently some people think the plutocrats have their best interest at heart. Never mind needless economic disparity, geo-political crises or ecological catastrophes. Just go shopping or watch t.v. and believe everything they taught you in civics class.
These problems will not be solved by state enforced socialism or unenforced anarchy - the wishful thinking of several posters here notwithstanding.
History proved those to be either dictatorships or just unworkable (aka disintegrating immediately). And always poorer than capitalism.

Capitalism - with highly developed social democracy in several sectors, progressive taxation, etc - is the most successful system known to mankind when it comes to solving said problems.
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Old February 11 2013, 01:41 AM   #162
T'Girl
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
My point was that's what the anarchists and kibbutzniks tried
But kibbutz's only worked while in semi-isolation. In time, kibbutz members grew dissatisfied with the growing stratification and inequality within the kibbutz system. This is what lead to the semi-collapse if the kibbutz system in the 1980's. People in the kibbutz saw people in the surrounding capitalist systems about them "getting ahead" when they work harder or smarter than the others within their own societies. They (perhaps naturally) want this for themselves and their families.

Today in the remaining kibbutz, there are now differences in pay based on the work individuals do. Privatization of various services, including medical and education. Transfer of commonly held kibbutz property into the ownership of individual kibbutz members.

Traditional kibbutz simply could not compete with the non-kibbutz world. They start to bleed their best people. They only work (as I said) in semi-isolation.

*** (Does anyone know the plural of "kibbutz?") ***

The anarchist's systems in Spain were short lived, it's impossible to know if they would have work over a protracted period of time.

It doesn't make any difference how good and equitable a system sounds, if in the end it simply doesn't work.

TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
Never mind needless economic disparity, geo-political crises or ecological catastrophes.
Viewing the multi-decade results of the "worker's paradises" of Communist Russia and China, I find the capitalistic system far superior (but not perfect), thank you.

Don't believe me? Breath the air in any western capital city, then travel to the Chinese capital city today and do the same without a filter mask. There's your true "ecological catastrophe."

Substituting a percentage of people being poor, with everyone being equally poor, nice compromise.

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Old February 11 2013, 10:28 AM   #163
Sci
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Capitalism - with highly developed social democracy in several sectors, progressive taxation, etc - is the most successful system known to mankind when it comes to solving said problems.
Tell that to its victims.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
*** (Does anyone know the plural of "kibbutz?") ***
That would be kibbutzim.

TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
Never mind needless economic disparity, geo-political crises or ecological catastrophes.
Viewing the multi-decade results of the "worker's paradises" of Communist Russia and China,
1. The People's Republic of China has long since embraced Capitalism as an economic system, whatever rhetoric they may use.

2. It absurd to imagine that all we have is a binary choice between faux-"Communist" totalitarianism (USSR, PRC) on one hand and faux-"democratic" plutocracy on the other.

Substituting a percentage of people being poor, with everyone being equally poor, nice compromise.
No. It is a Faustian bargain, a deliberate decision to build a structure that ruins some lives for the benefit of others. A society built like a large-scale Omelas is neither "nice" nor sustainable.

"True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar; it comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring." - Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Old February 12 2013, 12:06 AM   #164
TheGoodNews
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

Today in the remaining kibbutz, there are now differences in pay based on the work individuals do. Privatization of various services, including medical and education. Transfer of commonly held kibbutz property into the ownership of individual kibbutz members.

Traditional kibbutz simply could not compete with the non-kibbutz world. They start to bleed their best people. They only work (as I said) in semi-isolation.
Today about a quarter of the nearly 300 kibbutzim are still communal/traditional (i.e. moneyless). Others have become privatized and have equal pay for all and others have wage differentials. So there's choice. Collectively the kibbutzim contribute to almost a tenth of the Israeli economy today. There was a recent documentary on it called Inventing our life: The Kibbutz Experiment.

The anarchist's systems in Spain were short lived, it's impossible to know if they would have work over a protracted period of time.

It doesn't make any difference how good and equitable a system sounds, if in the end it simply doesn't work.
Have you seen The Take by Naomi Klein and Avi Lewis?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEzXln5kbuw

Workers' Self-Management has been going on in Argentina since IMF crashed their economy in 2002. In so many respects very similiar to the Self-Management practiced in Spain seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUig0lFHDDw

The main difference is that it wasn't forcibly destroyed and continues today. In fact, Argentina represents history's most successful attempt at Workers' Self-Management.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_self-management

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neNwAZSBMb0

This movement has been violently suppressed not only in Spain, but in Germany under the Weimar Republic, in Italy with the suppression of the Fiat workers and France & Algeria during the 1960s. Even the Wobblies (aka IWW) in the U.S. wanted to establish this. "Give the worker the full product of his labor and his pension is assured." -- 'Big Bill' Haywood (IWW speaker).

So Argentina is a hopeful portent for the future workers (aka productive class).

Viewing the multi-decade results of the "worker's paradises" of Communist Russia and China, I find the capitalistic system far superior (but not perfect), thank you.

Don't believe me? Breath the air in any western capital city, then travel to the Chinese capital city today and do the same without a filter mask. There's your true "ecological catastrophe."
Again, it's already known that niether the USSR nor Red China were socialists societies. They were State Capitalists and were tremendous failures. Remember Lenin re-introduced capitalism to Russia in the early twenties with his NEP. Even Orwell had his own to say on the subject:

"In every country in the world a huge tribe of party-hacks and sleek little professors are busy 'proving' that Socialism means no more than a planned state-capitalism with the grab-motive left intact. But fortunately there also exists a vision of Socialism quite different from this." George Orwell -- Homage to Catalonia (.104)

Orwell also had this to say:

"As far as my purely personal preferences went I would have liked to join the Anarchists." George Orwell -- Homage to Catalonia (.116)

"If I had understood the situation a bit better I should probably have joined the Anarchists." George Orwell - The Collected Essays; Volume 1 (.289)

"Up here in Aragon one was among tens of thousands of people, mainly though not entirely of working-class origin, all living at the same level and mingling on terms of equality. In theory it was perfect equality, and even in practice it was not far from it." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia (.104)

The quality of life for workers (the productive class) seems to improve both economically and socially under self-management.

And let's not forget the continuing impact anarchism still has even for the American productive class:

"Around the turn of the century, the Wobblies and other anarchists played the central role in winning the workers the 5-day week and 8-hour day." David Graeber - Fragments of an Anarchist Anthropology. I doubt anyone here wants to return to the 12-hour workday, 6-day work week. BTW, Graeber helped co-found the Occupy movement which lead to such projects as Occupy Sandy, Occupy Foreclosures and the Rolling Jubilee thus showing anarchisms continuing influence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVDkkOAOtV0

Is the Star Trek federation itself anarchists? Well, it does show many of the same ideals; a free and equal society where the means of production are in the hands of the citizen rather than the state or capital. I think Roddenberry was a progressive humanist which like anarchism traces its origins to the enlightenment and the Age of Reason.

Iain Banks' "Culture" series bears similarities to the Federation (i.e. a space faring, moneyless society).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET8IFxPo61w And Banks does identify his "Culture" society as an anarchistic society. (See paragraph 8)

"Essentially, the contention is that our currently dominant power systems cannot long survive in space; beyond a certain technological level a degree of anarchy is arguably inevitable and anyway preferable." Iain Banks -- A Few Notes on the Culture.
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Old February 13 2013, 05:32 PM   #165
hux
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
Well, consider this:

"Certain jobs are regarded as so distasteful, that they are filled by a permanent rotation system in which almost everyone serves his turn; the most notable instance is work in the kitchen and dining room, such as cooking, dishwashing, and serving..." Melford Spiro - Kibbutz: Venture in Utopia

"In the absence of private property, and of money, it is obvious that the profit motive does not operate in this society." Melford Spiro - Kibbutz: Venture in Utopia.

Think of that guy in STAR TREK 2 vacuuming the floor in the background while Spock and Kirk are chatting. Who's to say he does that full time? Maybe it was just his turn that week to clean the floors?

Also, as I pointed out in the past, Revolutionary Spain abolished money but their were still waiters doing their jobs. George Orwell and others noted this.

"Foreigners who gave a tip had it politely returned with an explanation of why the practice corrupted both the giver and the receiver." The Spanish Civil War by A. Beevor.
But in that example, the worker is still in receipt of some benefit to himself or other etc....in a society like the federation, however, there is no incentive to take part in any kind of shared society (not unless the federation withholds technology) the cleaner/waiter gains nothing from working individually or collectively that he wouldn't still gain by not working - so while you're hoovering the ship (cos you believe in the mutual benefit of such an agreement)....i would be using transporter technology to explore the world, replicating lobster and learning French cos i have the time and freedom to do so, safe in the knowledge that i do not have to do any hoovering whatsoever

TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
Also don't assume an 8 hour day is universal. Today in France people work 7hour days/35 hour weeks, in the Israeli kibbutzim people were working 6 hour days, and during the Spanish Revolution the workday was split between two people to alleviate unemployment.

And you do know how the 8 hour day came about? From the IWW (Industrial Workers of the World or Wobblies). They advocated for the 8-hour work day/5 day work week in place of the 12-hour work day/6 day work week. They originally wanted to reduce the work week even further.

"8 hours of labor! 8 hours of rest! 8 hours recreation!" [It was something along those lines]

"...we must inscribe on our banner the revolutionary watchword, 'abolition of the wages system.'" - Preamble to the IWW.

"Give the worker the full product of his toil and his pension is assured." - 'Big Bill' Haywood (IWW Speaker).
erm...ok.....are you here to recruit or something?

I could just have easily said a 12 hour shift (the length of the shift was not really that relevant) the main point was that people rarely work because they want to (and so in a society that doesn't demand it...why do it.....i mean aside from being a good comrade)
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