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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

View Poll Results: Is saving the lives of billions of suffering dicks a PD violation?
Yes it is. 2 9.52%
No it isn't. 14 66.67%
Janeway doesn't care about the PD, and she'll do what ever she wants. 7 33.33%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

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Old February 7 2013, 03:00 PM   #1
Guy Gardener
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Would curing the Phage be a Prime Directive Breach?

This surely more than most anything else after the destruction of Caretakers Array would have changed the balance of power in the region immediate to season one?
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Old February 7 2013, 06:43 PM   #2
Anwar
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Re: Would curing the Phage be a Prime Directive Breach?

If they make a request for aid, then no it's not.
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Old February 7 2013, 07:05 PM   #3
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Re: Would curing the Phage be a Prime Directive Breach?

Anwar wrote: View Post
If they make a request for aid, then no it's not.
Absolutely right. A lot of people don't understand this. The PD doesn't forbid any intervention under any circumstances. When dealing with warp-capable cultures, it only precludes unwanted intervention. You can't take sides in a war between two alien powers or a civil war within an alien society, but you can offer to serve as a neutral mediator. You can't force another culture to change its ways, but if the legitimate government requests Federation aid, then you absolutely can provide that aid.

Sure, if the Federation had a cure and the Vidiian government had refused to accept it, then their hands would've been tied. But that doesn't seem likely, seeing as how the Vidiians were desperate to find a cure. We know that eventually the Think Tank provided a cure, and given their mercenary methods, it's one they surely would've withheld unless the Vidiians had agreed to pay their price. So since the cure was administered, that means the Vidiians must've accepted it, must've asked for it. And the Federation would've offered their cure free of charge, without demanding a steep price like the Think Tank presumably did. So there's no reason to think the Vidiians would've resisted the Federation's help, and thus there's no Prime Directive issue here.
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Old February 7 2013, 09:55 PM   #4
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Re: Would curing the Phage be a Prime Directive Breach?

So do you (the gentle reader) think that administering the cure into the water system when it had been refused by the government would be bad?
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Old February 7 2013, 10:49 PM   #5
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Re: Would curing the Phage be a Prime Directive Breach?

but if they cured it then neelix would never have lost his lungs which was hilarious
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Old February 7 2013, 11:07 PM   #6
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Re: Would curing the Phage be a Prime Directive Breach?

junxon wrote: View Post
but if they cured it then neelix would never have lost his lungs which was hilarious
Not for Neelix.
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Old February 7 2013, 11:40 PM   #7
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Would curing the Phage be a Prime Directive Breach?

If curing the Phage wouldn't be a Prime Directive violation, then neither would curing the Valakians in "Dear Doctor" (if there had been a PD at that time).
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Old February 7 2013, 11:45 PM   #8
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Re: Would curing the Phage be a Prime Directive Breach?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
If curing the Phage wouldn't be a Prime Directive violation, then neither would curing the Valakians in "Dear Doctor" (if there had been a PD at that time).
The Valakians wern't warp capable....and yes, that is a stupid demarcation line.
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Old February 7 2013, 11:46 PM   #9
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Re: Would curing the Phage be a Prime Directive Breach?

Christopher I would like to bring up Prototype.

A warp capable society of robots in possession of technical level of sophistication that exceeded the Federation, who were incapable of reproducing, so were dying off as a "species". However it seemed they found salvation when B'Elanna Torres claimed that she could set them right and save these droids from extinction.

JANEWAY: I don't doubt your abilities, B'Elanna, but helping them reproduce is a clear violation of the Prime Directive.
TORRES: They've expressed a desire to procreate. That's basic to any life form.
JANEWAY: I'm not saying they don't have the same rights as any organic species. That's not the issue here.
Janeway saved the Borg from 8472, and Arturis' bunch got decimated and he took revenge on Janeway for saving the Borg.

What you have to remember is that the Prime Directive is General Order Number in the Starfleet Rule book, not first stipulation on the Federation Charter, similar to how I assume that you are not constrained by the US Military Code of Justice. Of course Starfleet has to obey the dictation of the Federation Council who can answer aid requests from any one and then send Starfleet off to save the day... Chain of command? The Council orders the Admiralty and the Admiralty orders the Captains but a Federation Councillor or the Council et all can't order a Captain to do Jack shit? Imagine a Congressman assuming command of an Nuclear Submarine to impress his callgirl? But the Admiralty and/or the Coucil can repeal or supersede the Prime Directive by ordering/allowing humanitarian aid to "alien" factions which mere Captains have to stay to one side of unless they are on an "approved" list, and close to home like Picard's Enterprise was mostly, there would most certainly be a Denied list as long as any approved list that he was not allowed to make any contact with at all like how Christian Scientists won't take blood transfusions when they're dying.

Janeway doesn't have any list of approved and disapproved states she can play with, but even when she's dealing with nice Aliens, the Prime Directive protects her from the culpability of unforeseen consequences, and what would these unforeseen consequences be in the case of the curing the Phage? Oh, that's right, how can you foresee the unforeseeable? THAT'S WHY THERE'S A RULE!

Oh. Remember the Malon? Voyager offered them recying technology that would have stopped them from turning half the quadrant into a cesspit, but the garbage men weren't interested because if they couldn't haul garbage then they would be on the streets and living in incredibly clean gutters.

Tom saved that Water "planet" by blowing up a power plant against the wishes of the local government, which Janeway agreed with, but still refused to hand Tom over to suffer at alien justice for acts of terrorism, which is similar to what Teacake suggested about forcing a civilization to accept Federation aid.

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Last edited by Guy Gardener; February 8 2013 at 12:00 AM.
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Old February 7 2013, 11:50 PM   #10
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Re: Would curing the Phage be a Prime Directive Breach?

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
If curing the Phage wouldn't be a Prime Directive violation, then neither would curing the Valakians in "Dear Doctor" (if there had been a PD at that time).
The Valakians wern't warp capable....and yes, that is a stupid demarcation line.
But the Valakians were aware of the NX-01 crew, made contact, and asked for their help.

The question of whether a species is "Warp capable" is used by the Federation to evaluate whether or not to make first contact with an alien species. If another species does not have warp, but makes contact FIRST, it is clearly aware, and helping them would not be a PD violation (that I can see).
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Old February 7 2013, 11:56 PM   #11
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Re: Would curing the Phage be a Prime Directive Breach?

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
If curing the Phage wouldn't be a Prime Directive violation, then neither would curing the Valakians in "Dear Doctor" (if there had been a PD at that time).
The Valakians wern't warp capable....and yes, that is a stupid demarcation line.
If a culture doesn't know something you don't tell them. Let them figure it out for themselves and they'll be richer for the experience.

Most planets without Warp technology think that they are alone or can't prove that they arn't alone and it would break all their economies and philosophies to rectify that belief.

The Warp demarcation isn't really the line in the sand it's a question of awareness. Are they aware that there are ten thousand planets out there that are full of assholes?

I'm sure there are plenty of planets without Warp technology who for one reason or another all know all about the aliens of the galaxy, and the Federation would legally be able to make contact with them as a trading partner.

Good Lord, the Ferengi Bought Warp Drive!
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Old February 8 2013, 12:03 AM   #12
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Re: Would curing the Phage be a Prime Directive Breach?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Most planets without Warp technology think that they are alone or can't prove that they arn't alone and it would break all their economies and philosophies to rectify that belief
But that obviously did not apply to the Valakians, specifically. Even if they didn't have warp, they were clearly aware of life beyond their planet - in fact they went LOOKING for it. And they asked for help. That is enough in this case.
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Old February 8 2013, 12:06 AM   #13
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Re: Would curing the Phage be a Prime Directive Breach?

I dunno, if they did offer the Vidians a cure and they said no, then another of their victims said "Help they're stealing my vital organs", I think Voyager would have to say "Okay, hold up a sec. Now you can either take the god damned cure or we blow you up you murdering bastards."

Thanks to the TNG episode Pen Pals a majority of the writers started to interpret the prime directive in ways that had nothing to do with the way it was intended or the way it makes any god damned sense for it to be intended. No sane person would think that if one person is trying to murder another, preventing that murder is a serious ethical breach.
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Old February 8 2013, 12:07 AM   #14
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Re: Would curing the Phage be a Prime Directive Breach?

^ But at the end, "Pen Pals" established that helping an alien race (no matter what its technological level might be) which ASKS for help, is by definition not a Prime Directive violation. Sarjenka's distress call made it legal to help her people. Same thing would apply to the Valakians, and the Vidiians.
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Old February 8 2013, 12:10 AM   #15
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Re: Would curing the Phage be a Prime Directive Breach?

They had been visited before.

The Valakians weren't just asking for a cure.

They wanted warp drive too.

Archer was hesitant about giving these people a cure, but with out constant earthican supervision, which would be resented, just like he resented the Vulcans, they would most likely frakk their planet before they could die out form their genetic disorder.
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