Question

[IndyJones]

Kenbushway wrote:

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Woman are conquering the business world - more woman added to congress; woman are very on top today.

Right. Women make up a little more than half of our population and this Congress includes a record high number of female members, 101 out of the 535 people current serving (link). In business, currently a record high 3% of Fortune 500 CEOs are women (link). We've along way to go before we can pretend this isn't still a problem.

[Kenbushway]

[QUOTE]

sidious618 wrote:

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If you reread my post you'll see that I wasn't talking just about you. I was talking about life experiences in general.

I wasn't talking about you either. I was saying in general.

[Kenbushway]

datagal wrote:

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Thank God that you're not a woman
After reading some of your posts I have come to the conclusion that 1) you're a boy and 2) you have a lot of learning to do to truly understand what it's really like to be a man. Not a "real" man, but a just man.

I've said in a post that I myself don't think I fit the category.

[thestrangequark]

^Are you planning to respond to the questions I asked you, Ken?

[Kenbushway]

Locutus of Bored wrote:

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I didn't fit any of the negative (from your POV) traits you listed and didn't take it personally in the slightest. I just found your opinion to be outdated, unfounded, and insulting to others on its own. You don't have to be gay or black or a woman to disapprove of them being mistreated or stereotyped, and the same applies here.

And don't start playing the martyr. You said something people didn't like, and they called you on it. That's how discussion forums work. It's not because people are automatically coming into this dismissing your opinion out of hand without consideration first.

I don't wish to play martyr I most certainly brought this onto myself. I was simply saying that I didn't mean this as it had to be this way, I was just saying I didn't initially think it would insult anyone, I apologize if It has.

thestrangequark wrote:

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Yeah...and you completely missed the point. Have you thought about any of the questions I asked you?

I can pretty much guarantee that no one cares at all whether or not they fall into your definition of what it means to be a man, because we all agree that your definition of what it means to be a man is extremely naive and absolutely untrue. Why post the question at all if you're not interested in reconsidering your "opinion"?

I was simply saying that is was a mere question and that I didn't wish to insult anyone. I am, like I said before one of the reasons I wrote that long post which instead of concentrating on the silly things concentrated on honesty, integrity, non violence. I will admit that I am seeing the error of my thoughts, especially now that I am being asked to think about them abstractly. Sorry I didn't see this question, I would answered sooner.

[thestrangequark]

^It's good to hear that you are thinking more carefully about it. I was actually asking if you intended to respond to the questions I posed in my longer post, though.

[Kenbushway]

thestrangequark wrote:

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^It's good to hear that you are thinking more carefully about it. I was actually asking if you intended to respond to the questions I posed in my longer post, though.

Can you link me to it, I can't seem to find it.

[thestrangequark]

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...6&postcount=54

[Kenbushway]

thestrangequark wrote:

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Ken, firstly, I appreciate your open-mindedness. I also apologize if I came on strong. I do like to argue a point, but I want to assure you that that is all I am doing -- I do not mean to attack you as a person.

Locutus already covered a lot of salient points, but I also have some points I'd hope you'll consider when thinking about your position:

First, a lot of your worries are coming from your observations of your peers and younger people -- seeing behaviors that concern you and therefore cause you worry about the state of society in the future, correct?
The problem with this position is that you are generalizing the behavior of a small group of people at a very specific stage in their development, to all people at all times. Think of it this way: when you see toddlers crying over a bumped knee do you lament that the future generations will be wimpy crybabies? Of course not, because crying over a bumped knee is developmentally appropriate at that age. You can't generalize your peers' behavior to the future because they haven't grown up yet. Sure, there are some brilliant, responsible, respectful, mature teens -- and equally there are some childish adults, but generally speaking, people do mature, and so we can't make grand-scale predictions about the devolution of society based on the behavior of teens any more than we can based on the behavior of tots -- because, unfortunately, it is developmentally appropriate for teenagers to be stupid, vapid little shits.

If you need further evidence to support this idea, take a look at the following quotation. It's risking a cliche to post it, because people so often moan about the state of the next generation that this gets trotted around all the time:

Sounds familiar, huh? But you know who wrote that? Plato, attributed to Socrates. Every generation laments the failings of the next, because they are failing to grasp that the kids will grow up!

Now, the problems with your definitions of manliness, why they're based in a false premis, and why they are offensive. You seem to have an idea of what you think a man is, and you seem to think that there were more men who typified your ideals in the past. Thing is, there weren't. There was never a time where the majority of men were dignified and gentle, yet still rough-and-tumble and sturdy, Humphrey Bogartesque heroes. Those are just movies and rose-tinted memories of octogenarians reliving imagined glory days. You are basing your ideas of manliness on a Gold Standard of a Golden Age that never actually existed. False premis.

Next, your standards are completely arbitrary. They are based only on fashions, nothing more. In Ancient Egypt manly men had tiny corseted waists and eye liner. In 16th century Europe and East Asia manly men wore the highest high heels possible, with bright red soles -- high heels were only adopted by women during a stage when androgyny was In and women started to wear more manly clothes. Pink was considered a masculine color until the 1930s. Gender roles were generally equal among common folk in most of Europe well through the Middle Ages. In other cultures many of our stereotyped gender behaviors are completely reversed. Homosexuality has gone in and out of style over the decades, and in the West really only became associated with femininity in the 19th century. In some tribes (in Papua New Guinea, if I am remembering correctly, though if someone knows, please correct me) one is only considered manly if one gives and receives blow jobs. In Ancient Sparta, the manliest of men were rampantly homosexual and women were dressed as men on their wedding days! The point is, what is seen as masculine or feminine is completely arbitrary and changes over time. There is no set of standards that make one man more of a man than another, whether it be fashion, skills or hobbies, physical capability, attitudes towards women, sexual orientation, whatever. And the same goes for women -- you brought up shaving of body hair as making men less manly. Shaving of body hair only became fashionable for Western women in the 1920's -- am I less of a real woman since I shave my armpits and legs? After all, real women are hairy. Do you see how ridiculous all your rules sound in the context of history? Can you also see how it is offensive to men who don't fit into your arbitrary rule set to be told they are not real men?

First, a lot of your worries are coming from your observations of your peers and younger people -- seeing behaviors that concern you and therefore cause you worry about the state of society in the future, correct?

Correct.

Do you see how ridiculous all your rules sound in the context of history? Can you also see how it is offensive to men who don't fit into your arbitrary rule set to be told they are not real men?

I am beginning too and to all those who I did offend I apologize. I certainly fall into the same category in this case as the people I say I fear the future because of.

[Kestra]

junxon wrote:

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unless its just one very busy woman that's done everything!

[Carcazoid]

After reading all the posts in this topic, I have come to a conclusion.

[Kenbushway]

^ And what is that conclusion if you don't mind sharing?

[Kestra]

The problem with this thread (or one of them, anyway), isn't about you being silly or crazy. It's you seeing some behavior around you that you don't like, generalizing it to a large group of people, and acting a bit like a cranky old person. Attaching it all to gender just takes it to a higher level.

People are probably not as bad as you think. Things like respect, honesty, and integrity are still very much present in the world today. TSQ had it exactly right when she said that part of it is just about being at a certain stage of development. I don't expect a 16 year old or even a 20 year old to see things the same way that I do. That's not to say that we shouldn't strive to have these traits, but that we need to be realistic in our expectations.

You also get frustrated when people are bringing up women, but it's all a bit stupid to be talking about gender with any of this. The traits I mentioned above (that you have mentioned previously) like respect, honesty, and integrity ... those are things that aren't masculine or feminine traits. You shouldn't have a higher expectation of seeing them in a man.

Just because people are disagreeing with you here doesn't mean they think you are crazy. Don't keep saying "well that's why I have that option in the poll," because that's pointless. Discussions are about learning new things, not dismissing the other person as crazy. There have been some valuable contributions in this thread. What have you taken away from this experience? What have you brought to the discussion, and how can you improve that in the future?

Lastly, I'd say that you should be less preoccupied with the decline of society and people around you. It's not as bad as you think. Conduct yourself according to your beliefs and don't be in such a hurry to place your opinions and expectations on everyone else.

[thestrangequark]

^As usual, Kestra speaks truth with kindness.

Kenbushway wrote:

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Correct.

And? Did you consider what I wrote following that?

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Kestra wrote:

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It's you seeing some behavior around you that you don't like, generalizing it to a large group of people, and acting a bit like a cranky old person.

And those of us who are REAL cranky old people don't want our territory horned in on.