Farscape or Babylon 5?

[Jan]

Forbin wrote:

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I remember Area's brief tenure on CNN when she decided to become a news anchor instead of an actress. Whatever happened to her, anyway?

I think she's mainly in real estate now. And she'll be part of the big B5 reunion at Phoenix Comicon.

Jan

[Lindley]

Jan wrote:

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I think she's mainly in real estate now. And she'll be part of the big B5 reunion at Phoenix Comicon.

Jan

She was briefly on 24 one year, season 4 I think?

[Aeon]

Lindley wrote:

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She was briefly on 24 one year, season 4 I think?

Season three and yeah, the role was very brief.

[kirk55555]

The Long, Twilight Struggle - I really liked this episode. The centauri are very vicious. The fact that they used Mass Drivers, an outlawed weapon, seems like a dangerous decision. We learn that the humans, Minbari and Vorlons protest them using it. You'd think thast the Centauri aren't so overconfident that they'd want to risk making those three species angry. Fighting humans/Minbari would probably be different than fighting Narn. Its interesting to see how Londo has been reacting to events. It seems to have gone farther than he ever thought it would. Draal reappearing was interesting, although he was annoyingly melodramatic at times. The Shadows just demolished the Narn, and even prevented them from jumping away. They would (and most likely will) be dangerous opponents for the othert races. Londo watching the attack on the narn homeworld was a very good scene. The centari's terms were bad, probably worse than I thought they'd be (and arresting the leadership for "war crimes", when the centauri were the ones that used banned weapons, was a cheap shot). The scene in the council chambers at the end was very powerful, especially G'Kar's speech at the end. I'm glad G'Kar is getting Sanctuary. Overall, this was an amazing episode. There were great character moments, very memorable scenes, and an overall plot that was very good.

[Reverend]

Jan wrote:

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I've never been sure about that 'fix' part at all. None of the images that Talia flashed on were at all positive. I've always wondered if it might not have been intended as a weapon instead. I'd hoped that JMS would clarify it in the script book intro for this episode but it didn't come up.

Jan

Yeah, all I've ever been able to discern is that Kosh probably made the recording because he knew about Control. I've never been able to substantiate claims that the intent was to "fix" her later. It may be a logical surmise (especially in hindsight), but as far as I can tell it's just fan speculation.

My personal take is that he was somehow mapping out the extent of her reprogramming so he'd be in a better position to go after the sleeper personality in the future, if it ever became a threat.

What's always bothered me is that they went and brought up Talia's encounter with Abbut and yet I don't think it's never mentioned what--if anything--Garibaldi got out of Kosh. Perhaps it was a trap-door within a trap-door, just in case Talia every needed to be brought back after all?

hyzmarca wrote:

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Hypothetically, yes. The problem with the Psi-Corps is that it was created to brutally oppress telepaths because people hated and feared them but the releaties of psychic combat mean that all of its agents must be telepaths. You can see how this is problematic.

EarthGov's intent was that the Psicops would be their equivalent of the Jewish kapos and Ghetto Police in Nazi Germany, collaborators who fuck over and murder their own people in exchange for preferential treatment.

What actually happened is that the Psi Corps became a nation unto itself, with it's own unique culture, technically under the authority of EarthGov but in reality separate from Earth culture and with no real loyalty to mundane humanity.

The law that Telepaths have to take drugs that fuck them over and lead or suicide, join the Psi-Corps, or go to prison forever was passed by EarthGov, not the Psi-Corps. In human space, Telepaths aren't even second class citizens. Their status is somewhere between that of blacks in apartheid South Africa and Jews in Nazi Germany. Those who refuse to bow to the system are either imprisoned for life or just murdered and the mundanes really don't give a shit because they're scared of the telepaths. It's like being a mutant in Marvel only worse.

People like Bester are acting wildly outside the law to create what they believe to be a better world for telepaths. That requires doing some shady and unethical stuff, but they genuinely believe that the goal of freeing telepaths from mundane oppression (and oppressing mundanes in turn) is totally worth the cost.
In that way, the Psi-Corps and the telepath Underground Railroad are very similar. The difference is that the Psi-Corps wants to take over the system from within while the Underground Railroad just wants to get away from it.

Not quite right. Psi Corps came into existence as much to protect telepaths from mundanes as the other way around. When teeps were first discovered there was a wave of mass panic, lynchings and witch hunts brought on by the paranoia that "anyone" could secretly be a telepath. There was also a number of crimes committed by telepaths since, after all, telepaths are ultimately just people from all walks of life.

Of course it's never that simple and you really have to read all the Psi Corps novels to get exactly what's going on, the history of how things came to be. How the organisation has changed hands over the last century and how each Director has used to corps to advance their own personal agenda, usually co-opting and re-purposing the projects started by their predecessors.

In a nutshell though, there's more than one faction working within Psi Corps. One the one hand you have Bester's faction who represent the "old guard" within the Corps who are (in the short term) mostly concerned with protecting telepaths from the mundanes and (in the long term) securing dominance over said inferior masses.

The other faction is the one actually behind some of the nastier stuff we've seen and are mostly interested into using telepaths as tools and weapons with the intent to advance humanity over the other races. They're aligned with certain parties (mostly non-teeps) within EarthGov, Earthforce, at least one mega-corporation and another party that I shan't name.

Neither side are what you'd call "the good guys" or even "the bad guys". They're just two factions, each with their own agendas and equally valid reasons.

Ultimately, from the outside, the Psi Corps is a way to make telepaths appear non-threatening. This is good for the government since it promotes stability and keeps a potential resource at their disposal (in theory) and it's "good" for telepaths because it gives them a place where they can be themselves among others like them (again, in theory...)

kirk55555 wrote:

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The Long, Twilight Struggle - I really liked this episode. The centauri are very vicious. The fact that they used Mass Drivers, an outlawed weapon, seems like a dangerous decision. We learn that the humans, Minbari and Vorlons protest them using it. You'd think thast the Centauri aren't so overconfident that they'd want to risk making those three species angry. Fighting humans/Minbari would probably be different than fighting Narn. Its interesting to see how Londo has been reacting to events. It seems to have gone farther than he ever thought it would. Draal reappearing was interesting, although he was annoyingly melodramatic at times. The Shadows just demolished the Narn, and even prevented them from jumping away. They would (and most likely will) be dangerous opponents for the othert races. Londo watching the attack on the narn homeworld was a very good scene. The centari's terms were bad, probably worse than I thought they'd be (and arresting the leadership for "war crimes", when the centauri were the ones that used banned weapons, was a cheap shot). The scene in the council chambers at the end was very powerful, especially G'Kar's speech at the end. I'm glad G'Kar is getting Sanctuary. Overall, this was an amazing episode. There were great character moments, very memorable scenes, and an overall plot that was very good.

Easily one of the best and most memorable episodes of the whole show...and yet the best is yet to come.

Regarding the use of mass drivers; while it is a dangerous move, it's tempered by the knowledge that none of the other races are likely to do anything about it beyond official protests and maybe some trade sanctions. Neither Earth nor Minbar are in any kind of mood for another war. Not counting the Vorlons, the Minbari are the only ones that have the technology to go toe-to-toe with the Centauri. Don't let the silly haircuts fool you, they have some serious hardware on their side and are very practiced at conquest.

Politically; the Minbari have always essentially been isolationists. They did nothing while the Dilgar rampaged through the Non-Alligned worlds, conquering, enslaving and committing all kinds of atrocities, up-to and including genocide--to say nothing of the last time the Centauri decided to expand their Empire. Indeed, they only went after Earth in retaliation to what they considered an unprovoked attack.

Also the Narn Regime hasn't exactly made a lot of friends over the years. Yes they supplied Earth with advanced weapons during the Minbari War, but that was hardly altruistic and since then they haven't hesitated to take any opportunity for their own advantage. Bottom line, although all civilized worlds may cry out in outrage over such a flagrant treaty violation, none of them are about to stick their necks out for the sake of the Narn, even if they were in a position to do so.

It'd be like if China nuked Iran. There'd be a lot of harsh words and sanctions from the U.N., some sabre rattling and posturing from Russia, the U.S. and the other NATO countries, but I doubt anyone would be willing to invade Beijing over it.

[JD]

Jan wrote:

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I think she's mainly in real estate now. And she'll be part of the big B5 reunion at Phoenix Comicon.

Jan

I'm not sure yet, but I am seriously considering going to that. I've wanted to go the PCC the last couple of years, but haven't been able to make it yet. I'm seriously considering actually going this time.

[kirk55555]

Warning: I usually have spoilers in my posts and don't mention it (since it is a topic basically about me watching B5 now) but just incase, there are big spoilers about the end of Season 2, so be warned.

Comes the Inquisitor - This was an ok episode, but not great. I get the idea behind it, and they did it decently, I just didn't like the idea of torturing Delenn and then Sheridan to prove that they are "worthy". Well, whose to say that Kosh is worthy? Maybe he's not the right person. I don't care if his race is ancient, that doesn't mean he's automatically better than anyone else. I'd like to see him get tortured for awhile (although I'm not sure he could even be tortured). Actually, the Inquisitor's scenes with Delenn reminded me of a much better episode of a sci Fi series where a main character is tortured (even if the situation is completely different). I kept hoping the sequence would evenutally turn into:

Sebastian: Who are you?

Delenn: THERE ARE...FOUR LIGHTS!



The Inquisitor was ok, I guess. He did the part well, I just wasn't too excited about the part. The reveal that he was Jack the Ripper was interesting (although I prefer Jack to be a non-corporeal being that feeds on the fear and pain caused by his murders ). The fact that the Vorlons use him just makes them seem like bigger asses (lets find a serial killer to test the worthiness of people ). The scene with G'Kar and Vir in this episode was good. The episode ended in a very cliched fasion (it was their willingness to die for people that made them worthy, which is the reason 95% of people in Sci Fi seemed to be deemed worthy in situations like this), like I had guessed it was. This was an ok episode, although weaker than I'd expect from an episode right before the end.

The Fall of Night - The Vir/Lennier scene was entertaining, with both of them complaining about how they are always the last to know anything. The centauri continue to cause trouble. The Night Watch reappears, and confirms my suspicion that its an evil orginazation (when have anyone wearing that type of armband been good guys?). Arresting people for speaking against the president/his decisions should be obviously evil and against the law even in the B5 universe, but I guess at this point nothing EarthGov does is that surprising. The peace guy really ticked me off, as did the always idiotic EarthGov. A non-agression treaty? EarthGov is officially the worst (not expressly evil) government I've seen in a sci Fi TV show. The peace guy was just annoying, thinking that bowing to the Centauri was going to cause anything but problems in the long run. Between that and the fact thaty half of B5's crew seem to be disloyal scum willing to turn people in/betray Sheridan with little reason, I was getting rather annoyed at this episode. The peace guy seriously needed to get kicked out an airlock. I'm glad Sheridan basically said screw you to the upcoming treaty and defended the Narn. It was a cool fight (B5 got pretty beat up, but still won). The bomb scene was kind of predictable, but Kosh's reveal was not. It was cool seeing him leave his encounter suit to save Sheridan. I hadn't guessed that Sheridan was weightless., but then again I hadn't figured out that the rotating sphere section is apparently an outdoor area or something (I guess it spins for artificial gravity?). The fact that everyone saw something different explains the earlier comments about Kosh (Londo apparently not seeing anything was very interesting). It looks like that fighter pilot found his answers, although he died in the process and now his pics will probably make the shadows attack sooner than even Kosh's reveal would have. Ivanova's vopice over at the end was great. Overall, I liked this episode. Even with an EarthGov plot that made me want to throw something at the TV at times, it had cool moments, and really made me excited for season 3 (which I should be arriving in a week or two from Amazon.com).

[poundpuppy29]

I love both but I only have Farscape on DVD right now but I do plan on getting B5 sometime it's on my main amazon wish list Farscape you only have to get 2 things Farscape the complete series & The Peacekeeper Wars they were released separately not together lion's gate released PK Wars

[Sindatur]

Hold on to the things you disliked about these two episodes. I can't figure out how to say anthing more without spoilers

LOL, Delenn: THERE ARE...FOUR LIGHTS!

[hyzmarca]

kirk55555 wrote:

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The episode ended in a very cliched fasion (it was their willingness to die for people that made them worthy, which is the reason 95% of people in Sci Fi seemed to be deemed worthy in situations like this), like I had guessed it was.

It wasn't just their their willingness to die for each other. It was their willingness to die "in the dark." Anyone can throw their life away for fame and glory. The Vorlons don't want glory hounds, it's as simple as that.

[Sindatur]

hyzmarca wrote:

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It wasn't just their their willingness to die for each other. It was their willingness to die "in the dark." Anyone can throw their life away for fame and glory. The Vorlons don't want glory hounds, it's as simple as that.

Alone in the Dark, even, with no one ever knowing

[JoeD80]

^ Yeah, it was specifically about the willingness to die "alone and forgotten." A bit different than dying on the battlefield to save your team or something like that, which would be remembered.

kirk55555 wrote:

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I just didn't like the idea of torturing Delenn and then Sheridan to prove that they are "worthy".

The Sebastian character is intended to be the counterpoint to Morden. Look at who the Shadows use versus who the Vorlons use.

kirk55555 wrote:

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I hadn't figured out that the rotating sphere section is apparently an outdoor area or something (I guess it spins for artificial gravity?).

Yeah, that shuttle is in the outdoor area where places like the Garden and Fresh Aire restaurant open up to. The humans don't have the artificial gravity capabilities of some of the other races at this point, so they have to spin the station for it.

[Angel4576]

Have to say, I love Comes the Inquisitor - Wayne Alexander is just glorious in that role. As mentioned above, it's not just about the 'laying down your lives' thing, it's that you're willing to do it for the right reasons.

Re the Vorlons - well, we've had a pretty solitary view of the Vorlons up until now, Kosh. Makes you wonder just how representative he is of the Vorlons en masse......

The Fall of Night is a fantastic finale - my favourite bit is probably Sheridan's 'apology' after blasting the Centauri warship. "It's the thought that counts".......

[Reverend]

RE: EarthGov/Nightwatch - In case you haven't spotted it already, just about everything regarding these plotlines have some real and very memorable historical parallels. The EA diplomat even quotes Neville Chamberlain (unintentionally one would hope!) There is sound reasoning behind this too since it's pretty clear the Centauri are only really interested in going after the minor League Worlds along their borders. Earth Dome knows just as well as the Centaurum that they've already taken down one of the "big five" governments and going after Earth at this point would just be too costly. There's more to it of course and it should be clear pretty soon how and why EarthGov are so sure of the Centauri's intentions.

The whole thing about reporting sedition, people being locked up for speaking their minds and the like...well, ever hear of Nazi Germany? Or the Soviet Union? How about a certain U.S. Senator of Wisconsin by the name of Joseph McCarthy? That sort of thing may be been illegal under Santiago, but the thing about laws is that they're made and indeed unmade by governments. It should be pretty clear by now that EarthGov is promoting a climate of fear and intolerance, mostly aimed at the other races. There's a fair basis for this since it was just a decade or so ago that the Minbari nearly wiped humanity off the face of the galaxy...and it wasn't exactly as if the humans won either. They just stopped short of a killing blow. We can only imagine the kind of psychological damage that can inflict on a populous and Clark is taking full advantage of it to solidify his power base.

[kirk55555]

I get the historical parallels, I just don't get how the people in the show don't. Its a few hundred years in the future, but you'd still think that people would notice whats going on and protest. There seem to be absolutely no checks and balances to the power of the corrupt in EarthGov. At this point, if it goes any farther, EarthGov will start making the Alliance from Firefly or the Empire from Star Wars look like superior governments.

To be clear, my annoyance with EarthGov isn't effecting my enjoyment of the show. Its just a bit annoying to learn that, in B5, humans are actually worst in general then they are nowadays. I hope the EarthGov stuff doesn't become too muddled in reliving the past. I get it, JMS read a history textbook once. Either tone it down, or go full facist/dictatorship (which would atleast be something different). Still, the mediocre EarthGov stuff in no way messes with the rest of the show, which more than compensates for having to deal with an annoying EarthGov related character or plotline every so often. Also, I can see the earthGov stuff eventually going somewhere interesting, its just not there yet.