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View Poll Results: Are real men becoming extinct?
Yes real men are becoming extinct 5 14.71%
No real men aren't becoming extinct 10 29.41%
Yes and No 5 14.71%
You're crazy, no one thinks about this. 14 41.18%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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Old February 6 2013, 03:04 AM   #46
JiNX-01
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Re: Question

auntiehill wrote: View Post
I believe your premise is flawed.

All men (and women) don't have to be a certain way to be validated. That's absurd.

Your poll should include a "Please get in your time machine and return to the 1950s" option.
Hee. Well put.
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Old February 6 2013, 03:04 AM   #47
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Re: Question

J. Allen wrote: View Post
All men are real.
I'm not. I am a figment of my own imagination.

I'm not even sure I'm reading this thread, or...if it's reading me.
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Old February 6 2013, 03:10 AM   #48
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Re: Question

Kenbushway wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Kenbushway wrote: View Post
I was having a discussion where I said that it seemed like the era of real men seems to be coming to an end. I argued that boys these days shave themselves bald, soft hands, don't like to get dirty, don't like hard work, doesn't know how to fix a loose screw and just the manner in which a man treats another man seems to be lost on the newer generations. I was wondering if anyone else thought something close to this or if you believe that real men aren't in danger of becoming the minority.
Apparently real men are so lacking in confidence and self-worth that they need to have vacuous conversations where they discuss what a real man is and how they're a dying breed instead of just doing what makes them and their family content and not worrying about their image.

Apparently real men need to create arbitrary self-serving definitions of masculinity based on their own personal jobs, preferences, and hobbies like auto repair and ditch digging in order to position themselves as better than others.

Apparently real men don't see the hypocrisy in arguing for better treatment of other men while dismissing countless numbers of them as "non-real men" for bizarre reasons like whether they shave their heads or not, work in office jobs, have good hygiene, or what generation they're born in.

Apparently real men have a victim complex absent of any demonstrable cause for feeling victimized, and irrationally fear being a minority or having anything upset their cozy white Christian male dominated society.

If all of that is what it takes to be a "real man," good riddance to them and their anachronistic, arrogant, Alpha Male machismo bullshit. The sooner they pass on and leave the "newer generations" to continue to carve out a less rape-filled, spousal abusing, violence glorifying, racist, sexist, homophobic, warlike, and respectful path the better we'll all be for it.
You make an assumption that I believe I am a man. A man to me isn't just appearance or hobbies. A man takes care of his loved ones whether it be spouse or parents or siblings, does right by job, does right by themselves, respectful towards everyone especially elders and woman. I have no real responsibility, I do help my parents out but by most of my standards including ones not listed. I do not consider myself a man just yet; I have some time to go. Do I think men should be worried about getting dirty, no. Do I think men should care about how they shake hands, yes. I am tired of this slap high five then twisting of the hands crap, whatever they do these days that is considered the new handshake. Do I think men should be able to fix simplest things, yes. Majority of what I believe to be a man has nothing to do with hobbies or personality. I watched my peers in high school, it was a shame. They don't treat woman with respect or elders. They don't take pride in their surroundings, they like trashing other people's property and things for a laugh. Your whole post was a real waste of time, you started out and continued with assumptions.
It's not an assumption. You praised the manliness of getting dirty, working hard, having rough calloused hands, and being able to do repairs. Two of the things we know about you from prior discussions are that you like digging holes for fun and work in auto repair. Are you going to tell me that those two facts didn't influence your little profile in masculinity, even if you don't feel you quite fit the bill yet?

Your whole post on the other hand is making assumptions about others. That someone with soft hands from working indoors isn't doing hard work just because it's not manual labor. That someone who is clean and has good hygiene is "worried" about getting dirty, or that there is anything wrong with being worried about that if you don't want to ruin your clothes or appearance at that time. That this non-existent problem is generational rather than individual based on a few anecdotes from your time in school. That your definition of manliness is somehow universal.

You talk about being respectful to everyone, but you're not. You've disrespected countless individuals based on your ridiculous and arbitrary standards, as I said before.

You keep adding dumber and dumber reasons why someone is not a man. Seriously, shaving their head and how they shake hands in casual situations? Who gives a shit? I guess we better call The Rock and Samuel L. Jackson and a slew of soldiers down here to tell them the bad news that they're not real men any more, since they've done both.

All men are real men. There's no need for qualifiers or reasons to fear their demise simply because they have different preferences, goals, or abilities.

Somehow you've managed to be completely juvenile and sound like a bitter old fart in a single post. That's an impressive achievement. Mazal tov.

ETA: I see you added another post explaining things again while I was typing this up. This refers to your previous posts to that one.
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Old February 6 2013, 03:10 AM   #49
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Re: Question

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
All men are real.
I'm not. I am a figment of my own imagination.

I'm not even sure I'm reading this thread, or...if it's reading me.
But you're also in my imagination, which makes you real to me.
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Old February 6 2013, 03:12 AM   #50
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Re: Question

^ So I guess I am keeping it real, then? Yo.
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Old February 6 2013, 03:19 AM   #51
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Real men don't eat quiche.
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Old February 6 2013, 03:21 AM   #52
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Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ So I guess I am keeping it real, then? Yo.
Indubitably.
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Old February 6 2013, 03:33 AM   #53
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Re: Question

My mother can rebuild a motorcycle engine. Is she a Real Man?
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Old February 6 2013, 04:02 AM   #54
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Ken, firstly, I appreciate your open-mindedness. I also apologize if I came on strong. I do like to argue a point, but I want to assure you that that is all I am doing -- I do not mean to attack you as a person.

Locutus already covered a lot of salient points, but I also have some points I'd hope you'll consider when thinking about your position:

First, a lot of your worries are coming from your observations of your peers and younger people -- seeing behaviors that concern you and therefore cause you worry about the state of society in the future, correct?
The problem with this position is that you are generalizing the behavior of a small group of people at a very specific stage in their development, to all people at all times. Think of it this way: when you see toddlers crying over a bumped knee do you lament that the future generations will be wimpy crybabies? Of course not, because crying over a bumped knee is developmentally appropriate at that age. You can't generalize your peers' behavior to the future because they haven't grown up yet. Sure, there are some brilliant, responsible, respectful, mature teens -- and equally there are some childish adults, but generally speaking, people do mature, and so we can't make grand-scale predictions about the devolution of society based on the behavior of teens any more than we can based on the behavior of tots -- because, unfortunately, it is developmentally appropriate for teenagers to be stupid, vapid little shits.

If you need further evidence to support this idea, take a look at the following quotation. It's risking a cliche to post it, because people so often moan about the state of the next generation that this gets trotted around all the time:
"Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”
Sounds familiar, huh? But you know who wrote that? Plato, attributed to Socrates. Every generation laments the failings of the next, because they are failing to grasp that the kids will grow up!

Now, the problems with your definitions of manliness, why they're based in a false premis, and why they are offensive. You seem to have an idea of what you think a man is, and you seem to think that there were more men who typified your ideals in the past. Thing is, there weren't. There was never a time where the majority of men were dignified and gentle, yet still rough-and-tumble and sturdy, Humphrey Bogartesque heroes. Those are just movies and rose-tinted memories of octogenarians reliving imagined glory days. You are basing your ideas of manliness on a Gold Standard of a Golden Age that never actually existed. False premis.

Next, your standards are completely arbitrary. They are based only on fashions, nothing more. In Ancient Egypt manly men had tiny corseted waists and eye liner. In 16th century Europe and East Asia manly men wore the highest high heels possible, with bright red soles -- high heels were only adopted by women during a stage when androgyny was In and women started to wear more manly clothes. Pink was considered a masculine color until the 1930s. Gender roles were generally equal among common folk in most of Europe well through the Middle Ages. In other cultures many of our stereotyped gender behaviors are completely reversed. Homosexuality has gone in and out of style over the decades, and in the West really only became associated with femininity in the 19th century. In some tribes (in Papua New Guinea, if I am remembering correctly, though if someone knows, please correct me) one is only considered manly if one gives and receives blow jobs. In Ancient Sparta, the manliest of men were rampantly homosexual and women were dressed as men on their wedding days! The point is, what is seen as masculine or feminine is completely arbitrary and changes over time. There is no set of standards that make one man more of a man than another, whether it be fashion, skills or hobbies, physical capability, attitudes towards women, sexual orientation, whatever. And the same goes for women -- you brought up shaving of body hair as making men less manly. Shaving of body hair only became fashionable for Western women in the 1920's -- am I less of a real woman since I shave my armpits and legs? After all, real women are hairy. Do you see how ridiculous all your rules sound in the context of history? Can you also see how it is offensive to men who don't fit into your arbitrary rule set to be told they are not real men?
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Old February 6 2013, 04:04 AM   #55
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Re: Question

Someone once said, "Don't try and be a great man, just be a man".

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Old February 6 2013, 04:56 AM   #56
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I'm just going to sigh, take my glasses off, close my eyes, pinch the bridge of nose and then go to bed.
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Old February 6 2013, 05:00 AM   #57
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My opinion on this is obvious from my previous posts but I'll extrapolate a little through personal experience. I live on Long Island which is outside of NYC but surprisingly different from. It is a very close minded area and definitely has the same view as the OP on what makes a "real man."

You can probably guess that I don't fit this stereotype although it has nothing to do with being a nerd. It has to do with the fact that, apparently, to most LIers I am a gay man. I'm not. But I guess my actions and personality make them think that. For example, I have pretty much ZERO talent with mechanical things or with fixing broken appliances. I dress very well, button down shirts and nice jeans. I also wear tighter clothing because I like the way it looks. I am artsy, for Long Island at least, and would rather talk about movies or books than sports or beer or whatever else.

I'm also a bit feminine (again, in their opinion- I don't think there's such a thing as definite feminine behavior) in my behavior. I tend to wave my hands around a lot while talking and I'm very expressive as opposed to stoic and don't have much of a "manly" walk.

Now I could easily change some of this. I've always refused as it would be a lie. But I can't say that it's not frustrating and has made it difficult for me to make friends here. Since I've been in the city more I've made a lot more pals.

I also want to add that by no means am I trying to say I have it as hard as men who are gay- definitely not true. I'm just saying the fact that I'm perceived as gay or not a real man or both has hurt me a lot throughout my life. I've tried my best to remain true to myself, though.
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Old February 6 2013, 05:03 AM   #58
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Re: Question

Also:


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Old February 6 2013, 05:16 AM   #59
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Re: Question

sidious618 wrote: View Post
My opinion on this is obvious from my previous posts but I'll extrapolate a little through personal experience. I live on Long Island which is outside of NYC but surprisingly different from. It is a very close minded area and definitely has the same view as the OP on what makes a "real man."

You can probably guess that I don't fit this stereotype although it has nothing to do with being a nerd. It has to do with the fact that, apparently, to most LIers I am a gay man. I'm not. But I guess my actions and personality make them think that. For example, I have pretty much ZERO talent with mechanical things or with fixing broken appliances. I dress very well, button down shirts and nice jeans. I also wear tighter clothing because I like the way it looks. I am artsy, for Long Island at least, and would rather talk about movies or books than sports or beer or whatever else.

I'm also a bit feminine (again, in their opinion- I don't think there's such a thing as definite feminine behavior) in my behavior. I tend to wave my hands around a lot while talking and I'm very expressive as opposed to stoic and don't have much of a "manly" walk.

Now I could easily change some of this. I've always refused as it would be a lie. But I can't say that it's not frustrating and has made it difficult for me to make friends here. Since I've been in the city more I've made a lot more pals.

I also want to add that by no means am I trying to say I have it as hard as men who are gay- definitely not true. I'm just saying the fact that I'm perceived as gay or not a real man or both has hurt me a lot throughout my life. I've tried my best to remain true to myself, though.
For what it's worth, I know how you feel. I live in a part of Southwestern Ohio that's right smack in the heart of "dually truck, skoal tucked into your lip, cut off tee shirt even in the winter, readin' books with just words are for pussies" country.

I smile a lot, use the mid-register of my voice instead of the deeper country twang, and I'm polite, saying "Please, thank you, sir, ma'am", and so on. This results in my getting funny looks, epithets tossed my way. Hell, I used to work in a farmer's market office, where a booth owner actually asked me "if I was a faggot" because I referred to him as "gentleman", when getting assistance from another office clerk.

Most of you obviously know about my love of cartoons, one in particular, which of course draws it's own assumptions about my sexuality, and about my preponderance towards other things by which I will not dwell on here.

The point is, there is this ridiculous notion that men must behave a certain way, that they have to follow some kind of guideline to "be a man", and it's all arbitrary.
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Old February 6 2013, 05:19 AM   #60
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I should add that if someone wants to be the "real man" that's been described and is happy with that then there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But it's wrong to expect others to act in the same fashion.
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