Question - Page 3

MacLeod · February 6 2013, 12:11 AM

Wait has the Y gene dissappeared?.

But no real men have not dissapeared, that's like saying real women have dissapeared. Both genders run the full gauntlet of types. Maybe Men of today are different than they where a generation(s) ago but society changes over time.

In terms of relationships some prefer someone who is more masculine, some prefer someone who is more feminie. But as with anything both genders can display either trait or in between depending on the context.

thestrangequark · February 6 2013, 12:12 AM

Kenbushway wrote:

Locutus of Bored wrote:

Kenbushway wrote:

I was having a discussion where I said that it seemed like the era of real men seems to be coming to an end. I argued that boys these days shave themselves bald, soft hands, don't like to get dirty, don't like hard work, doesn't know how to fix a loose screw and just the manner in which a man treats another man seems to be lost on the newer generations. I was wondering if anyone else thought something close to this or if you believe that real men aren't in danger of becoming the minority.

Apparently real men are so lacking in confidence and self-worth that they need to have vacuous conversations where they discuss what a real man is and how they're a dying breed instead of just doing what makes them and their family content and not worrying about their image.

Apparently real men need to create arbitrary self-serving definitions of masculinity based on their own personal jobs, preferences, and hobbies like auto repair and ditch digging in order to position themselves as better than others.

Apparently real men don't see the hypocrisy in arguing for better treatment of other men while dismissing countless numbers of them as "non-real men" for bizarre reasons like whether they shave their heads or not, work in office jobs, have good hygiene, or what generation they're born in.

Apparently real men have a victim complex absent of any demonstrable cause for feeling victimized, and irrationally fear being a minority or having anything upset their cozy white Christian male dominated society.

If all of that is what it takes to be a "real man," good riddance to them and their anachronistic, arrogant, Alpha Male machismo bullshit. The sooner they pass on and leave the "newer generations" to continue to carve out a less rape-filled, spousal abusing, violence glorifying, racist, sexist, homophobic, warlike, and respectful path the better we'll all be for it.

You make an assumption that I believe I am a man. A man to me isn't just appearance or hobbies. A man takes care of his loved ones whether it be spouse or parents or siblings, does right by job, does right by themselves, respectful towards everyone especially elders and woman. I have no real responsibility, I do help my parents out but by most of my standards including ones not listed. I do not consider myself a man just yet; I have some time to go. Do I think men should be worried about getting dirty, no. Do I think men should care about how they shake hands, yes. I am tired of this slap high five then twisting of the hands crap, whatever they do these days that is considered the new handshake. Do I think men should be able to fix simplest things, yes. Majority of what I believe to be a man has nothing to do with hobbies or personality. I watched my peers in high school, it was a shame. They don't treat woman with respect or elders. They don't take pride in their surroundings, they like trashing other people's property and things for a laugh. Your whole post was a real waste of time, you started out and continued with assumptions.

There is so much wrong with this post I am exhausted just thinking about where to begin.

Kestra · February 6 2013, 12:14 AM

Yeah, just don't.

Kenbushway · February 6 2013, 12:17 AM

thestrangequark wrote:

Kenbushway wrote:

Locutus of Bored wrote:

Apparently real men are so lacking in confidence and self-worth that they need to have vacuous conversations where they discuss what a real man is and how they're a dying breed instead of just doing what makes them and their family content and not worrying about their image.

Apparently real men need to create arbitrary self-serving definitions of masculinity based on their own personal jobs, preferences, and hobbies like auto repair and ditch digging in order to position themselves as better than others.

Apparently real men don't see the hypocrisy in arguing for better treatment of other men while dismissing countless numbers of them as "non-real men" for bizarre reasons like whether they shave their heads or not, work in office jobs, have good hygiene, or what generation they're born in.

Apparently real men have a victim complex absent of any demonstrable cause for feeling victimized, and irrationally fear being a minority or having anything upset their cozy white Christian male dominated society.

If all of that is what it takes to be a "real man," good riddance to them and their anachronistic, arrogant, Alpha Male machismo bullshit. The sooner they pass on and leave the "newer generations" to continue to carve out a less rape-filled, spousal abusing, violence glorifying, racist, sexist, homophobic, warlike, and respectful path the better we'll all be for it.

You make an assumption that I believe I am a man. A man to me isn't just appearance or hobbies. A man takes care of his loved ones whether it be spouse or parents or siblings, does right by job, does right by themselves, respectful towards everyone especially elders and woman. I have no real responsibility, I do help my parents out but by most of my standards including ones not listed. I do not consider myself a man just yet; I have some time to go. Do I think men should be worried about getting dirty, no. Do I think men should care about how they shake hands, yes. I am tired of this slap high five then twisting of the hands crap, whatever they do these days that is considered the new handshake. Do I think men should be able to fix simplest things, yes. Majority of what I believe to be a man has nothing to do with hobbies or personality. I watched my peers in high school, it was a shame. They don't treat woman with respect or elders. They don't take pride in their surroundings, they like trashing other people's property and things for a laugh. Your whole post was a real waste of time, you started out and continued with assumptions.

There is so much wrong with this post I am exhausted just thinking about where to begin.

You've never had a problem getting on me in the past, I doubt much could stop that now.

thestrangequark · February 6 2013, 12:25 AM

What, you mean that one time in another thread when I pointed out that anecdote and evidence aren't the same thing, and you never responded? That wasn't getting on you, that was trying to explain what really is a genuinely counter intuitive and difficult truth. That had nothing to do with you personally -- you see, I wasn't attacking you, I was defending science!

Mr. Laser Beam · February 6 2013, 12:28 AM

SCIENCE!

(sorry, just had 80's flashback)

Kenbushway · February 6 2013, 12:44 AM

thestrangequark wrote:

What, you mean that one time in another thread when I pointed out that anecdote and evidence aren't the same thing, and you never responded? That wasn't getting on you, that was trying to explain what really is a genuinely counter intuitive and difficult truth. That had nothing to do with you personally -- you see, I wasn't attacking you, I was defending science!

I wasn't pointing to the last time, I said past that includes a long time ago. I should have been more detailed. I understood what you meant the last time; I didn't feel a need to respond, nor did I know you were expecting one. Getting on me doesn't mean attack it can mean correcting as well.

teacake · February 6 2013, 12:47 AM

What is all this crap about real men fixing things? Don't you think women should be able to fix things too?

You either learn to fix things or you learn to earn enough to pay someone else to fix them. Neither is right or wrong, they are just choices you make. And none of it has anything at all to do with gender.

Kenbushway · February 6 2013, 01:11 AM

teacake wrote:

What is all this crap about real men fixing things? Don't you think women should be able to fix things too?

You either learn to fix things or you learn to earn enough to pay someone else to fix them. Neither is right or wrong, they are just choices you make. And none of it has anything at all to do with gender.

I haven't talked about woman, because I am not one. My post wasn't meant to insult gender.

thestrangequark · February 6 2013, 01:17 AM

^The gender you're insulting is your own!

Kenbushway wrote:

thestrangequark wrote:

What, you mean that one time in another thread when I pointed out that anecdote and evidence aren't the same thing, and you never responded? That wasn't getting on you, that was trying to explain what really is a genuinely counter intuitive and difficult truth. That had nothing to do with you personally -- you see, I wasn't attacking you, I was defending science!

I wasn't pointing to the last time, I said past that includes a long time ago. I should have been more detailed. I understood what you meant the last time; I didn't feel a need to respond, nor did I know you were expecting one. Getting on me doesn't mean attack it can mean correcting as well.

If you see being corrected as the same as someone "getting on" you, you might want to analyze your reactions. You're not going to learn much or be very happy if you take it personally every time someone corrects an error you've made. As for the past, I honestly don't remember ever having a conflict with you before...are you sure it was me? Because that doesn't sound like me. I'll attack an argument, but rarely will I attack a person.

As for the problems with your argument, do you really want to hear them, or are you going to feel like I'm attacking you.

Kenbushway · February 6 2013, 02:11 AM

thestrangequark wrote:

^The gender you're insulting is your own!

Kenbushway wrote:

thestrangequark wrote:

What, you mean that one time in another thread when I pointed out that anecdote and evidence aren't the same thing, and you never responded? That wasn't getting on you, that was trying to explain what really is a genuinely counter intuitive and difficult truth. That had nothing to do with you personally -- you see, I wasn't attacking you, I was defending science!

I wasn't pointing to the last time, I said past that includes a long time ago. I should have been more detailed. I understood what you meant the last time; I didn't feel a need to respond, nor did I know you were expecting one. Getting on me doesn't mean attack it can mean correcting as well.

If you see being corrected as the same as someone "getting on" you, you might want to analyze your reactions. You're not going to learn much or be very happy if you take it personally every time someone corrects an error you've made. As for the past, I honestly don't remember ever having a conflict with you before...are you sure it was me? Because that doesn't sound like me. I'll attack an argument, but rarely will I attack a person.

As for the problems with your argument, do you really want to hear them, or are you going to feel like I'm attacking you.

I apologize but I seem to be using a phrase wrong. As a person who grew up youngest out of 3 siblings all girls I am more than used to be people correcting me. I don't mean to say I take your corrections wrongly. Unless overly insulting I tend to take to mind what people say in their corrections as I have knowledge of my own problems with comprehension and getting a point across successfully. Its take a bit more for me to grasp certain things than it does most. As seen with the multi-qoute issue. It took about 3-4 times for me to finally remember to use the multi-qoute function correctly. I welcome any corrections you may have as it may help organize my own thoughts. Again sorry for the misunderstanding, caused by me of course.

J. Allen · February 6 2013, 02:20 AM

Kenbushway wrote:

I was having a discussion where I said that it seemed like the era of real men seems to be coming to an end. I argued that boys these days shave themselves bald, soft hands, don't like to get dirty, don't like hard work, doesn't know how to fix a loose screw and just the manner in which a man treats another man seems to be lost on the newer generations. I was wondering if anyone else thought something close to this or if you believe that real men aren't in danger of becoming the minority.

All men are real. All women are real. The only illusion is what takes place inside your own head.

Kenbushway · February 6 2013, 02:45 AM

I will openly admit that I am terrible at getting a point across, that is why I posted this particular subject as a question, instead of a statement of fact, I gave just my opinion. I often don't make my better points until after I debate someone, its that thing of having to defend your position rather than simply stating an opinion. When I started I certainly didn't have a great way of putting my opinion, but with defending an opinion comes better arguments that have slipped the memory or just come to attention. I have thought more about my opinion because of such debate, this certainly isn't the first time I've had a conversation about said subject and previous versions have gone a lot better. From those old conversations comes old arguments that are far better put.

It was overly silly to mention things about dirty, fixing, or shaving of body hair. That is why I had that fourth option, which is the prevailing opinion according to the poll. I put in my personal positions on certain aspects of societal change that I found to be weird, I.E. Shaving of chest hair, arms for appearance. However I have a much better reason I find that a certain kind of man is disappearing. Apart of a man's character is supposed to be integrity, honesty, common sense, and most of all a sense of non violence. A "real" man may cry, because though he is emotional he is still strong. "Real" men respect woman and elders, people's personal property, and doesn't consider violence as the first and only answer to problems. Now the reason I say I think this type of man is disappearing is from my own personal experience and experiences of some others. While I grew up in high school and even a little in college I've seen something I don't like from young men from my generation and the generation coming after us. I've observed not the majority but a substantial amount of young man with no respect towards woman, if its not their family they don't care about elders; the way they speak towards them is appalling sometimes, just shameful the rest. I am not going after the average person who throws a cigarette on the ground, though annoying not something I am after. Its the willful destruction of property in any form whether it be actual damage or appearance wise, for just fun and laughs. One of the most disturbing things is the fact that its doesn't take much (just the word bitch) for a person to get into a fight. I don't mind people learning the sport of fighting, I like boxing myself. But in my opinion actual men are like Juan Luc Picard in a way, talk things out first and rational non violent endings. I hope this clears up and better defines some of the things (though not all) I think about what actual men are. I don't talk about woman because I am not one myself. It is not to exclude you as a gender. Woman are conquering the business world - more woman added to congress; woman are very on top today.

Kenbushway · February 6 2013, 02:46 AM

J. Allen wrote:

Kenbushway wrote:

I was having a discussion where I said that it seemed like the era of real men seems to be coming to an end. I argued that boys these days shave themselves bald, soft hands, don't like to get dirty, don't like hard work, doesn't know how to fix a loose screw and just the manner in which a man treats another man seems to be lost on the newer generations. I was wondering if anyone else thought something close to this or if you believe that real men aren't in danger of becoming the minority.

All men are real. All women are real. The only illusion is what takes place inside your own head.

that is why I gave the poll option that I am crazy, because I myself thought it might be an option.

J. Allen · February 6 2013, 02:59 AM

Kenbushway wrote:

J. Allen wrote:

Kenbushway wrote:

I was having a discussion where I said that it seemed like the era of real men seems to be coming to an end. I argued that boys these days shave themselves bald, soft hands, don't like to get dirty, don't like hard work, doesn't know how to fix a loose screw and just the manner in which a man treats another man seems to be lost on the newer generations. I was wondering if anyone else thought something close to this or if you believe that real men aren't in danger of becoming the minority.

All men are real. All women are real. The only illusion is what takes place inside your own head.

that is why I gave the poll option that I am crazy, because I myself thought it might be an option.

I wouldn't say crazy, just that it seems likely that your perception of what should be and what is are a bit skewed.

View Poll Results: Are real men becoming extinct?
Yes real men are becoming extinct	5	14.71%
No real men aren't becoming extinct	10	29.41%
Yes and No	5	14.71%
You're crazy, no one thinks about this.	14	41.18%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

February 6 2013, 12:11 AM	#31
MacLeod Vice Admiral Location: Great Britain	Re: Question Wait has the Y gene dissappeared?. But no real men have not dissapeared, that's like saying real women have dissapeared. Both genders run the full gauntlet of types. Maybe Men of today are different than they where a generation(s) ago but society changes over time. In terms of relationships some prefer someone who is more masculine, some prefer someone who is more feminie. But as with anything both genders can display either trait or in between depending on the context. __________________ On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.

February 6 2013, 12:14 AM	#33
Kestra Vice Admiral Location: somewhere beautiful	Re: Question Yeah, just don't.

February 6 2013, 12:25 AM	#35
thestrangequark Vice Admiral Location: Brooklyn!	Re: Question What, you mean that one time in another thread when I pointed out that anecdote and evidence aren't the same thing, and you never responded? That wasn't getting on you, that was trying to explain what really is a genuinely counter intuitive and difficult truth. That had nothing to do with you personally -- you see, I wasn't attacking you, I was defending science! __________________ The Enterprise is my TARDIS. View my art!

February 6 2013, 12:28 AM	#36
Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Location: The visitor's bullpen	Re: Question SCIENCE! (sorry, just had 80's flashback) __________________ It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

STAR TREK

CSI

ABOUT US

February 6 2013, 12:47 AM	#38
teacake Admiral Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.	Re: Question What is all this crap about real men fixing things? Don't you think women should be able to fix things too? You either learn to fix things or you learn to earn enough to pay someone else to fix them. Neither is right or wrong, they are just choices you make. And none of it has anything at all to do with gender. __________________ Rider: I can't believe you'd kill me for a field of empty holes. J'onn: It's all I have. ■ ■ ■ Janeway does Melbourne

February 6 2013, 02:45 AM	#43
Kenbushway Commander Location: Georgia	Re: Question I will openly admit that I am terrible at getting a point across, that is why I posted this particular subject as a question, instead of a statement of fact, I gave just my opinion. I often don't make my better points until after I debate someone, its that thing of having to defend your position rather than simply stating an opinion. When I started I certainly didn't have a great way of putting my opinion, but with defending an opinion comes better arguments that have slipped the memory or just come to attention. I have thought more about my opinion because of such debate, this certainly isn't the first time I've had a conversation about said subject and previous versions have gone a lot better. From those old conversations comes old arguments that are far better put. It was overly silly to mention things about dirty, fixing, or shaving of body hair. That is why I had that fourth option, which is the prevailing opinion according to the poll. I put in my personal positions on certain aspects of societal change that I found to be weird, I.E. Shaving of chest hair, arms for appearance. However I have a much better reason I find that a certain kind of man is disappearing. Apart of a man's character is supposed to be integrity, honesty, common sense, and most of all a sense of non violence. A "real" man may cry, because though he is emotional he is still strong. "Real" men respect woman and elders, people's personal property, and doesn't consider violence as the first and only answer to problems. Now the reason I say I think this type of man is disappearing is from my own personal experience and experiences of some others. While I grew up in high school and even a little in college I've seen something I don't like from young men from my generation and the generation coming after us. I've observed not the majority but a substantial amount of young man with no respect towards woman, if its not their family they don't care about elders; the way they speak towards them is appalling sometimes, just shameful the rest. I am not going after the average person who throws a cigarette on the ground, though annoying not something I am after. Its the willful destruction of property in any form whether it be actual damage or appearance wise, for just fun and laughs. One of the most disturbing things is the fact that its doesn't take much (just the word bitch) for a person to get into a fight. I don't mind people learning the sport of fighting, I like boxing myself. But in my opinion actual men are like Juan Luc Picard in a way, talk things out first and rational non violent endings. I hope this clears up and better defines some of the things (though not all) I think about what actual men are. I don't talk about woman because I am not one myself. It is not to exclude you as a gender. Woman are conquering the business world - more woman added to congress; woman are very on top today. __________________ For great info on do-it-yourself auto repair and maintenance: www.ericthecarguy.com (warning: When getting into the harder areas some car knowledge is recommended)