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Old February 4 2013, 10:53 AM   #16
Jar Jar Binks
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Re: First Xindi attack made no sense

I think it would have worked better if the first attack wasn't meant to be a test, but the actual attack, but there was a flaw in the weapon and it malfunctioned after just a few seconds. So the Xindi had to build another weapon, but on a rushed timetable because now Earth had been warned.

Reminds me of the two Death Stars in the Star Wars movies, in a way.
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Old February 4 2013, 03:07 PM   #17
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Re: First Xindi attack made no sense

Skywalker wrote: View Post
I think it would have worked better if the first attack wasn't meant to be a test, but the actual attack, but there was a flaw in the weapon and it malfunctioned after just a few seconds. So the Xindi had to build another weapon, but on a rushed timetable because now Earth had been warned.
That could have been one solution...at least it would have been more believable.
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Old February 4 2013, 03:28 PM   #18
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Re: First Xindi attack made no sense

What makes you think that the first attack was some sort of a "test"? Surely the intent was to exterminate mankind there and then, and the weapon seemed to be perfectly capable of doing just that - right until the point where it malfunctioned.

Memory Alpha makes up all sorts of nonsense about the weapon being a "probe" that "self-destructed" after a successful mission, but none of that appears backed up by the actual aired stories. The Xindi just built a weapon intended to destroy Earth, and it failed; they built a second one, and Archer took it away from them; and they built a third one, and it either succeeded ("Twilight") or was thwarted at the last minute ("Zero Hour").

Now, it's quite possible that the second weapon was just a test rig for the third one. But nothing suggests that the first one would have been a test rig, a prototype, or a shot in the dark. It was probably a well tested system with various prototypes preceding it - and despite all this, it just didn't deliver.

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Old February 4 2013, 03:40 PM   #19
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Re: First Xindi attack made no sense

Timo wrote: View Post
What makes you think that the first attack was some sort of a "test"?
Because I just watched the entire 3rd season and it was referred to as "just a probe" numerous times.

Here is one of the transcripts from the first episode of the 3rd season "The Xindi"

[Xindi Council Chamber]
HUMANOID: It could simply be a coincidence.
REPTILIAN: You're being naive. Their planet is fifty light years away. It is not a coincidence.
HUMANOID: How do you know your contacts gave you accurate information?
INSECTOID: It's the beginning of an invasion. Hundreds of Earth ships will follow.
HUMANOID: They have no way of knowing that we launched the probe.
INSECTOID: We must destroy the vessel.
REPTILIAN: How many humans are aboard?
INSECTOID: It doesn't matter. They must be destroyed before they find the weapon.
ARBOREAL: When will it be ready?
DEGRA: The next series of tests is being prepared.
REPTILIAN: You will accomplish nothing if all you do is run tests.
ARBOREAL: We must be patient. We must follow the plan that we all agreed to.
AQUATIC: Our future is at stake. This council mustn't be divided.
HUMANOID: (to Reptilian) Learn everything you can about this human vessel.

First they refer to "the probe" and later they refer to the actual "weapon."
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Old February 4 2013, 03:53 PM   #20
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Re: First Xindi attack made no sense

None of that means the "probe" wasn't intended to destroy mankind. Its mission was a failure, that much every Xindi agrees on. But none of them directly refer to it as a test; it's only the "Proving Ground" hardware that is being used for test purposes.

What qualifies as a "probe" in the Trek universe is really ambiguous. An apparent piloted mission to explore Saturn was a "probe"; an uncrewed mission across the galaxy was a "probe"; a space Nazi nuclear missile was a "probe"; use of sensors is called a "probe"...

Memory Alpha seems to take the Future Guy at face value about the nature of the first Xindi attack. But haven't we learned better than to trust the Guy? Especially when he appears to be related to the very enemy that launched the attack..

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Old February 4 2013, 03:59 PM   #21
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Re: First Xindi attack made no sense

Timo wrote: View Post
None of that means the "probe" wasn't intended to destroy mankind. Its mission was a failure, that much every Xindi agrees on. But none of them directly refer to it as a test; it's only the "Proving Ground" hardware that is being used for test purposes.

Memory Alpha seems to take the Future Guy at face value about the nature of the first Xindi attack.
I never mentioned Memory Alpha. As I said before, I just finished watching season 3. If you get time, watch it again yourself and see if you still feel the same way.
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Old February 4 2013, 04:05 PM   #22
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Re: First Xindi attack made no sense

From the last time I saw it, I did get the feeling that our heroes did believe in the "test" theory, not that it made much difference in their actions - but that the Xindi never did. They had tried and failed, and wanted to try again. And they now knew Plan A didn't work, so they launched several others, including the "Carpenter Street" Plan B and the megaweapon Plan C.

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Old February 4 2013, 04:25 PM   #23
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Re: First Xindi attack made no sense

HopefulRomantic wrote: View Post
It could be that the Xindi needed to test the weapon in "local Earth space" rather than "Expanse space." The space anomalies created by the spheres might have made space different enough in the Expanse that the Xindi felt a need to test the tech where it was supposed do do its damage, to make sure it would work properly.
More than agree. Not just "could" be, but must be. This aspect could not be tested in home territory. The device was probing the path to Earth.

Also, the Xindi needed to test Eath defenses. The device was probing possible resistance. Obviously this couldn't be tested in the Expanse.

The only question is why the Xindi wouldn't expend titanic resources on a final solution weapon when they didn't know how to successfully negotiate a journey out of the Expanse, then attack against an unknown defense capabilty? I think the ansswer is obvious.

Despite the popularity of the idea that the test firing was a plotting error, it is entirely mistaken.
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Old February 4 2013, 04:26 PM   #24
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Re: First Xindi attack made no sense

Timo wrote: View Post
From the last time I saw it, I did get the feeling that our heroes did believe in the "test" theory, not that it made much difference in their actions - but that the Xindi never did. They had tried and failed, and wanted to try again. And they now knew Plan A didn't work, so they launched several others, including the "Carpenter Street" Plan B and the megaweapon Plan C.
Transcripts from: "The Expanse"
[Temporal communications room]
(a humanoid silhouette is in a cone of light)
SILIK: He can see you more clearly if you move closer.
ARCHER: Who is he?
SILIK: He wants to talk to you. It would be foolish to ignore him.
ARCHER: What do you want?
FUTURE MAN: Your planet was attacked.
ARCHER: I'm aware of that.
FUTURE MAN: What you're not aware of is why. The probe was sent by the Xindi. They learned that their world would be destroyed by humans in four hundred years.
ARCHER: How would they know what's going to happen in four hundred years?
FUTURE MAN: They were told by people from the future. People who can communicate through time.
ARCHER: Are they the ones the Suliban are working for?
FUTURE MAN: The Suliban work for me.
ARCHER: So you're the one who tried to start a civil war in the Klingon Empire, the one who's manipulated my mission from day one.
FUTURE MAN: The people who have contacted the Xindi belong to another faction. The probe was only a test. The Xindi are building a far more powerful weapon. When it is completed, they will use it to destroy Earth.
ARCHER: Annihilate us before we can annihilate them. Why are you telling me this? FUTURE MAN: The Xindi were not supposed to learn of their future. If they deploy this weapon, it will contaminate the timeline. You must not let that happen.
ARCHER: Why should I believe you?
FUTURE MAN: You have no choice but to believe me.

Transcripts from: "The Shipment"
GRALIK: How long are you going to keep me here?
HAYES: That's up to Captain Archer.
GRALIK: Well, you can tell him that I'll be in my study.
HAYES: I'm afraid you're going to have to stay right here.
GRALIK: I have work to do.
HAYES: And I'm under orders. Please sit down.
GRALIK: I've already told you everything I know. (door opens) Ah, Captain Archer. I was beginning to think you'd forgotten about me. (Hayes leaves)
ARCHER: You said you weren't involved in building weapons.
GRALIK: That's correct.
ARCHER: Explain this.
GRALIK: I don't know what this is.
ARCHER: It's a fragment of a probe that murdered seven million people. The dead pilot was Xindi, the alloy is Xindi, and it's imprinted with the quantum signature of the compound you produce here. We know you're constructing a larger version of the weapon, big enough to destroy a planet. I want to know where it's being built!
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Old February 4 2013, 04:59 PM   #25
Timo
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Re: First Xindi attack made no sense

Yup, sounds like Archer swallowed Future Guy's lies hook, line and sinker... While the Xindi had no idea what the hell he was talking about.

The device was probing the path to Earth.
Sounds like a good idea. But this should and could have been done covertly, without firing a superweapon at Earth!

The device was probing possible resistance.
The above goes doubly for this. If there is resistance, surely it shouldn't be allowed to witness the Xindi death ray in action! Probing should be conducted so that only the Xindi benefit from it, not the enemy.

What we see of the first weapon is devastating power much in excess of what Kirk's old starship had - and Kirk considered himself capable of sterilizing a planet without having to call in reinforcements. Sure, it's less power than what was demonstrated by the second Xindi death ray, but these were two different tactical approaches, and both had good odds of working. The first would have removed all life from Earth in a matter of hours; the second would have done it in a matter of seconds. Both struck against an Earth undefended by armadas of starships, so we never learned what their comparative strengths or weaknesses vs. defenses would have been...

Timo Saloniemi
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Old February 4 2013, 05:02 PM   #26
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Re: First Xindi attack made no sense

Melakon wrote: View Post
Star Trek often lifted names from other languages. Xindi is the name of a Chinese Township and a Chinese flute.

DS9's Jem'Hadar could be adapted from Jemadar, in (Middle-Far Eastern) feudal times referring to a ranking soldier battling commoners on his lord's territories. It was also used as a rank in the British Indian Army.
And Ferengi is from the Turkish and Arabic (or maybe Persian?) words for a European (derived from "Frank," i.e. a French person).
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Old February 4 2013, 05:06 PM   #27
MarsSpectre
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Re: First Xindi attack made no sense

Timo wrote: View Post
Yup, sounds like Archer swallowed Future Guy's lies hook, line and sinker... While the Xindi had no idea what the hell he was talking about.
So Future Guy must be lying because it doesn't fit your opinion of what happened?
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Old February 4 2013, 05:10 PM   #28
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Re: First Xindi attack made no sense

Having read posts, I think your thread title makes the most sense.
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Old February 4 2013, 05:12 PM   #29
Gaith
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Re: First Xindi attack made no sense

Didn't we just have this thread three or so weeks ago?
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Old February 4 2013, 05:15 PM   #30
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Re: First Xindi attack made no sense

Gaith wrote: View Post
Didn't we just have this thread three or so weeks ago?
Sorry....didn't see it. I scanned the first page of posts and didn't see anything about it. Since I just finished season 3, I thought I would post about it.
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