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General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

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Old February 3 2013, 09:20 PM   #16
TiberiusMaximus
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Re: Crew familiarity

Fair enough. I think it would depend on the context.
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Old February 3 2013, 09:25 PM   #17
nightwind1
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Re: Crew familiarity

TiberiusMaximus wrote: View Post
Starfleet is a fictional organization from the fictional future. It's not the US Navy (or even a fictional version of the US Navy), so it's not "wrong" if they do things differently. That's like an American watching a show about the navy of another country and complaining that the differences are inaccuracies. They're not inaccuracies, they're differences.

For example, some countries pronounce Lieutenant "loo-tenant" and some pronounce it "leff-tenant." One isn't "right" and the other isn't "wrong", they're just different.
"Leff-tenant" is wrong because there's no "E-F" in "lieutenant".

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Old February 3 2013, 09:30 PM   #18
Retu
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Re: Crew familiarity

nightwind1 wrote: View Post
TiberiusMaximus wrote: View Post
Starfleet is a fictional organization from the fictional future. It's not the US Navy (or even a fictional version of the US Navy), so it's not "wrong" if they do things differently. That's like an American watching a show about the navy of another country and complaining that the differences are inaccuracies. They're not inaccuracies, they're differences.

For example, some countries pronounce Lieutenant "loo-tenant" and some pronounce it "leff-tenant." One isn't "right" and the other isn't "wrong", they're just different.
"Leff-tenant" is wrong because there's no "E-F" in "lieutenant".

So where's "R" in Colonel?
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Old February 3 2013, 09:34 PM   #19
The Mirrorball Man
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Re: Crew familiarity

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
why does Starfleet have to conform to exact way of the US navy?
Because it's so much cooler that way.
Really? What is it that you consider "cool" about the US Navy?
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Old February 3 2013, 10:44 PM   #20
Nerys Myk
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Re: Crew familiarity

Bigjoe wrote: View Post
Well because its not their name and just sounds unprofessional IMO.

Just my opinion.
Better than "Hey, you!!!!".
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Old February 4 2013, 12:01 PM   #21
Bigjoe
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Re: Crew familiarity

Aye I suppose so.

Better than calling someone "Mate" or "Pal"
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Old February 4 2013, 06:06 PM   #22
scotpens
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Re: Crew familiarity

Bigjoe wrote: View Post
If I didn't know the crewman's name I'd call him by his rank. "Ensign", "Lieutenant" etc.

Calling someone "Mister" is just wrong.
Only if the Mister is actually a Ms.!



The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Because it's so much cooler that way.
Really? What is it that you consider "cool" about the US Navy?
Why, the Navy is one of the finest and most attractive and butchest fighting forces in the world.

And they've got ships and planes!
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Old February 5 2013, 04:41 AM   #23
Nerys Myk
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Re: Crew familiarity

The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
why does Starfleet have to conform to exact way of the US navy?
Because it's so much cooler that way.
Really? What is it that you consider "cool" about the US Navy?
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Old February 5 2013, 05:28 AM   #24
The Mirrorball Man
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Re: Crew familiarity

^
That's a Star Trek series I'd watch.
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Old February 5 2013, 07:24 AM   #25
T'Girl
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Re: Crew familiarity

The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
The Glorious T'Girl wrote: View Post
Because it's so much cooler that way.
Really? What is it that you consider "cool" about the US Navy?
One (of many) reason is they have that really cool song.



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Old February 8 2013, 02:09 AM   #26
Dover
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Re: Crew familiarity

This isn't a TOS issue, but it always bugged me on DS9 when the Daxes would call Sisko "Benjamin." They're both very young officers when they start out, and it seems that Starfleet doesn't count the service of prior hosts, so it strikes me as awkward for a junior officer to call the CO by his first name on the bridge, in ops, and generally in front of the rest of the crew during normal operations when everybody else is addressing the captain formally.

Obviously off-duty they have a long history, and Dax is the mentor and Sisko the student, but I'd think for the purposes of maintaining order, Dax would act her rank when on duty among other officers.
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Old February 8 2013, 04:20 AM   #27
The Mirrorball Man
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Re: Crew familiarity

Dover wrote: View Post
I'd think for the purposes of maintaining order, Dax would act her rank when on duty among other officers.
Order was maintained so how is that an issue?
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Old February 8 2013, 05:07 AM   #28
Darkwing
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Re: Crew familiarity

First, up through TMP, the US Navy was the model, enough so that, instead of commodore, Kirk was promoted to Rear Admiral, because the navy had changed the name of the rank by that time.
Second, senior officers in the US Navy do not address junior officers as "mister". Depending on the situation, they use surname, rank and surname, or rank. Junior officers and enlisted call officers up through captain "Mister" and surname, except the CO and XO.
Third, the "r" in colonel comes from the Spanish version, coronel. IIRC, "Leftenant" once referred to the lieutenant on the left, and there was also a Rightenant. That would have been back when the officers in an army consisted of the captain, his senior lieutenant, his couple of junior lieutenants, the most junior of which carried the ensign, and was therefore called ensign, and he might have had a sergeant to help with his army of about 20-30 enlisted.
Fourth, Dax calling Sisko "Benjamin" in public or Bones calling Kirk "Jim" in public does go against the professional standards of today's navy, but it happens there, too.
Fifth, Starfleet has never been shown doing anything that hasn't been a standard naval mission updated to the fictional technology and outer space milieu.
Humanitarian, diplomatic, exploration, etc. are all there. Instant communications has reduced the need for a captain to act as an ambassador, the fact that we've already been almost everywhere on Terra reduces exploration, but it's still part of the job.
Sixth, officers call enlisted by surname, rate, or rate and surname, or as the longer form. Enlisted do the same when in official settings, and often in social settings among peers. So I can be petty officer Darkwing, QM1, QM1 Darkwing, or Darkwing. Junior enlisted who don't know me, or who are in trouble will call me petty officer. Same if in a formal situation, such as disciplinary review board, reporting aboard a new command, or requesting permission to come aboard. Among my friends or peers, it'll often be surname, occasionally first name.
Chiefs, though, to officers and enlisted, are Chief/Senior Chief/Master Chief surname, or Chief, Senior, or Master Chief. O'Brien should have been called "Senior", not "Chief".

And "shipmate" is a derogatory term now, instead of the intended meaning. The only way we normally hear it used anymore is to mean "Dirtbag I outrank and intend to publicly humiliate". We joke about the chief's version of AD-OLS: Attention Deficit - oh, look! SHIPMATE!!!!


Now, if the above doesn't soothe any qualms about calling Starfleet a military, the forms of address, and professional conduct, then you're on your own in figuring it out.
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Old February 8 2013, 02:29 PM   #29
indolover
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Re: Crew familiarity

I don't see the issue.

Picard and Crusher referred to each other on a first-name basis. Sometimes Picard called Riker 'Will' and La Forge 'Geordi'.

I've never served in the armed forces, but even from my perspective I wouldn't deem it offensive. If I were a new sub-Lieutenant in the Royal Navy and the CO of my ship and the chief engineer had known each other for 15 years prior, who am I to complain if they call each other via their first names instead of "Lt. Cmdr"?
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Old February 8 2013, 03:55 PM   #30
Dover
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Re: Crew familiarity

The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
Dover wrote: View Post
I'd think for the purposes of maintaining order, Dax would act her rank when on duty among other officers.
Order was maintained so how is that an issue?
In this case, yes, but I would think that the Trill have a code of behavior already in place for this situation, which would say that the Trill officer should conduct themselves in official Starfleet matters according to the rank of their current host. Just because it didn't cause strain among the officers in this case doesn't mean it's a good policy overall.

Everyone knows they have a history, and Sisko can call her Old Man as much as he wants, and she can call him Benjamin in more private situations all she wants, but for her to so openly flaunt her special relationship with the captain just seems rude (like is it really necessary to say, "Benjamin, I'm picking something up on the sensors"?). It's especially rude to Kira, who outranks her and still addresses the CO with respect, and it just seems like showing off to all the other officers of equal or lesser rank, who also have to address Sisko, Kira and their seniors with respect.

Obviously Sisko doesn't mind, but it makes me think less of Jadzia (I don't blame Ezri, she's just following the status quo). Sometimes Trills seem like old people who know what they're doing is rude, they're just like, "I'm old! I don't have to follow the rules!"
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