If Not Wonder Woman...Then Who?

[C.E. Evans]

stj wrote:

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Well, a woman in her twenties who has been a Shield agent for some years after other years when she was a Russian assassin must have started her career in murder when she was twelve? And this was supposed to be in the new democratic Russia too, when the main people being attacked were Chechens. Or was Yeltsin's secret imperialist assault on the West foiled by Shield before it got into the papers?

I don't know is the Romanov story actually contributed to the popularity of the Avengers movie or not. I suspect the spectacle and some one liners did far more. But it is painfully obvious that it shouldn't have. Wasn't the most crowd thrilling moment for her when she was called a "mewling quim," which is Whedon-speak for "whining cunt?" Speaks for itself, I think.

I think the majority of people saw a different movie than you did.

CorporalCaptain wrote:

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Black Widow and Banner were the two break-out characters in the movie I watched. I have a suspicion that many other people saw something similar.

Essentially this.

[Guy Gardener]

In an Uncanny X-men comic, 256ish (1990)... Back when Jim Lee was just beginning and Claremont was really on form... It's 1942 when Captain America meets Wolverine in Mandipoor while fighting Ninja's to see who can be in control of a 6 year old Kung-fu prodigy named Natasha Romanov.

She called Wolverine "Uncle Logan" from time to time but I wonder if there was some transitional period ever where she had to phase out the name "Uncle Steve"?

Natasha either had some Russian version of Nick Fury's Infinity Formula, or like her boyfriend "Bucky" she might have spent decades in suspended animation while she wasn't in use by the state... But as far as the comics are concerned, the Black Widow was conceived in the 1930s.

(Spider-Woman too, but that's a completely stranger story indeed.)

[intrinsical]

My idea is probably going to sound strange since she did not start out as a comic book superheroine, but if you want a silver screen superheroine that the masses can accept, I say look no farther than Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Not the teenage Buffy who protected Sunnydale, but Buffy in her mid-thirties or early forties. Buffy the longest surviving vampire slayer, a mature and confident leader. The advantage is that masses already know her, a portion of the current generation of women has grown up with her as a role model, and she has an entourage of BFFs which I consider as crucial for a super heroine.

[Guy Gardener]

Longest surviving?

Buffy died twice.

On my hard drive I have three Disney Cinderella Cartoon movies.

In the third one she uses fairy magic to go back in time.

[Hound of UIster]

Guy Gardener wrote:

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Natasha either had some Russian version of Nick Fury's Infinity Formula, or like her boyfriend "Bucky" she might have spent decades in suspended animation while she wasn't in use by the state... But as far as the comics are concerned, the Black Widow was conceived in the 1930s.

The Black Widow project was conceived during the Cold War. She was given the Infinity Formula by the Winter Soldier not long after the Claremont story.

[Christopher]

stj wrote:

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Wasn't the most crowd thrilling moment for her when she was called a "mewling quim," which is Whedon-speak for "whining cunt?" Speaks for itself, I think.

Oh, come on. The villain called her that. Loki was trying to diminish and degrade her -- and he failed. She maintained total control of the situation, and by playing on his sexist assumptions and getting him to underestimate her, she manipulated him into giving away his plan. She out-tricked a trickster god. And that's why it was thrilling for the crowd -- not because the villain tried to demean Black Widow, but because she totally kicked his ass. We were supposed to hate him for the "mewling quim" line (which isn't "Whedon-speak" but an archaic British idiom in keeping with the way Asgardians normally speak in the Marvel Universe) and cheer when Natasha made him eat those words.

[stj]

^^^Oh, come on! You actually believed that? That was silly when she was tied in a chair and it was silly then. There are zero thrills when the script hands out an unearned freebie.

All that's left is the dialogue. A fitting archaism? The thrill of showing up Loki you pretend the scene is about would have been there if the line had been "pissy bitch" or "whiny cunt."
The word itself is all the scene has to offer.

[Professor Zoom]

stj wrote:

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^^^Oh, come on! You actually believed that? That was silly when she was tied in a chair and it was silly then. There are zero thrills when the script hands out an unearned freebie.

Yeah. Because THAT'S what happened. That's why the audience I watched it with cheered. Because the Widow got one over on Loki.

Facts iz facts.

All that's left is the dialogue. A fitting archaism? The thrill of showing up Loki you pretend the scene is about would have been there if the line had been "pissy bitch" or "whiny cunt."
The word itself is all the scene has to offer.

Yeah.... no. It's a fun scene. The look on Loki's face when he realizes he's been taken... hilarious.

[Technobuilder]

It's true. Black Widow was good.

In truth Hawkeye got the short end of the stick in Avengers, he was basically Mind Controlled the whole damn time.

[stj]

Professor Zoom wrote:

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...Facts iz facts...The look on Loki's face when he realizes he's been taken... hilarious.

It was the same look on the Russian guy's face the first time they did the purported joke. Don't want to be quarrelsome, but it sure isn't a fact that the same joke is funnier the second time round. I don't think there was even any particular mirth the first time.

Now it's nice for you if you could believe that, but really, since there's no difference between Loki's dumb expression and Russian whozis' dumb expression, the bang from the second scene comes from the pizzazz added by Loki's use of the word "quim."



There's a reason why I rated the movie as no better than a C. And there's a reason why I found it completely unwatchable on DVD. The movie's just not good enough without the real pizzazz of a movie screen. This reliance on shock value in this scene exposes Whedon's failure to write a good script.

[Hound of UIster]

stj wrote:

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This reliance on shock value in this scene exposes Whedon's failure to write a good script.

Other than the the carnival attraction of crossing over characters from 4 different Marvel movies together, there is really not much going story-wise for Avengers.

[Professor Zoom]

stj wrote:

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It was the same look on the Russian guy's face the first time they did the purported joke. Don't want to be quarrelsome, but it sure isn't a fact that the same joke is funnier the second time round. I don't think there was even any particular mirth the first time.

Of course you want to be quarrelsome. If anything, that moment sets up the moment later with Loki. And she took on THE Trickster God... and won. It's funny. The audience I saw it with LAUGHED.

Now it's nice for you if you could believe that,

See... right there... being condescending... THAT'S meant to be quarrelsome. Yeah. I believe that seen is funny. So do a LOT of other people.... So, why don't you dial it back a little?

but really, since there's no difference between Loki's dumb expression and Russian whozis' dumb expression, the bang from the second scene comes from the pizzazz added by Loki's use of the word "quim."

As I said, the Russian scene sets it up... and we think that Loki ACTUALLY gets under her skin.

It's fine you didn't like it. But for a lot of other people, it did.

There's a reason why I rated the movie as no better than a C.

Great! So?

And there's a reason why I found it completely unwatchable on DVD. The movie's just not good enough without the real pizzazz of a movie screen. This reliance on shock value in this scene exposes Whedon's failure to write a good script.

I don't think the script was a failure... out of the ballpark, no. I think the beginning, getting the team together is pretty slow. But once everyone is together, it's a lot of fun, the characters feel like they do in other movies, and there's some fun moments... "Puny God" comes to mind.

[stj]

Hound of UIster wrote:

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Other than the the carnival attraction of crossing over characters from 4 different Marvel movies together, there is really not much going story-wise for Avengers.

That's a lot. At least it was watchable on the big screen. And while Whedon may have failed, he at least tried to do something with Romanov.

"Its fine you didn't like it." Is it really fine? Wasn't the claim "fact iz facts," meaning that the scene is funny and thrilling? Perhaps condescension isn't as easy to read as to hear?
Could I have misread? Could someone else have misread too?

There may not really be any disagreement as to whether someone has a right to laugh.

[Guy Gardener]

Last night on GOON, that new sitcom with Chandler, they sat down in hotel room to watch Avengers on payperview, and not the porn version... Which isn't awful.

For such a failure it's nice how that flick is still in the muggles minds.

[DarKush]

RoJoHen wrote:

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I guess what I was getting at with my post is the Marvel has more female characters that I would be interested in seeing having solo projects, not so much that they already have popular solo female characters. Ms. Marvel, for instance, I would love to see developed as a solo franchise, or at least introduced in the next Avengers movie. I think Marvel has some fantastic female characters that have a lot of potential to be far more popular then they are.

I think Marvel has been building up Carol Danvers for a while now, so we'll see if she gets a movie or at least an important role in the SHIELD show or some upcoming Marvel TV show. From what I read of her Ms. Marvel series I liked it and could see some of that being adapted for the big or small screen. As for the new Captain Marvel series, it hasn't really grabbed me, though I did like the Carol-Monica Rambeau team up.

I do agree that Marvel does have some great female characters, and wouldn't mind seeing more in solo projects in print or on the screen.