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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old January 30 2013, 11:44 PM   #31
Metryq
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

Timo wrote: View Post
North pole/south pole of the warp field?
A favored interpretation in many early fan works, the most prominently in Franz Joseph's Technical Manual.
Hmmm, there's no mention of the Alcubierre drive. The forward dome is labeled "space energy / matter sink (acquisition)" and the rear dome is "space energy / matter source (field restoration)".

Neither is very specific, and the latter makes no sense at all. ("Source"?)
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Old January 31 2013, 03:38 AM   #32
Albertese
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

Metryq wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
North pole/south pole of the warp field?
A favored interpretation in many early fan works, the most prominently in Franz Joseph's Technical Manual.
Hmmm, there's no mention of the Alcubierre drive. The forward dome is labeled "space energy / matter sink (acquisition)" and the rear dome is "space energy / matter source (field restoration)".

Neither is very specific, and the latter makes no sense at all. ("Source"?)
The idea was that basically the universe's matter would be collapsed into the front ends of the nacelles (matter sink) and be restored out the aft end (matter source). I don't really figure this is the way it works, but that was how FJ imagined it.

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Old January 31 2013, 05:43 PM   #33
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

Into other words, a "jet engine" for the fabric of space/time.

Sincerely,

Bill
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Old January 31 2013, 06:09 PM   #34
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

Redfern wrote: View Post
Into other words, a "jet engine" for the fabric of space/time.
That's what the Franz Joseph nomenclature suggests, but that is not what an Alcubierre drive is. The concept behind the AD is that a black hole is generated in front of the ship and a white hole behind. This is not really "bootstrapping" the ship through space, where the ship "falls" toward the black hole. The idea is that a "bubble" of twisted space-time surrounds the ship. Thus, the ship is isolated in its own region of normal space, while the "bubble" acts as a kind of "lubricant," allowing the ship to do all kinds of FTL stunts without the time dilation penalty.

The whole notion of "space-time," twisted or not, sounds ludicrous to me. But if one grants that much, I don't see why this escape clause shouldn't work.
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Old January 31 2013, 10:07 PM   #35
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

I've now seen the Alcubierre drive repeatedly mentioned and fail to see what's so peculiar new or innovative about it. Back in 1979, when they were trying to put the motion picture on science factual footing, I remember NASA's Jesco von Puttkamer (RIP) joined as a scientific consultant and the warp drive ("space bubble") was considered to be working basically the same as this Alcubierre drive (so maybe Puttkamer drive would be more accurate? Or A & P drive? ).

Here is one of my favorite TOS tech quotes from Spock (in "By Any Other Name"):

The Enterprise is propelled by matter-antimatter reactors.

(a very concise statement that the ship is driven by energy and not particle thrust).

Please bear in mind, that according to "The Doomsday Machine" and the USS Constellation the caps don't seem to have any function that's essential to achieve warp drive.

As for the spheres at the aft of the nacelles I guess it's not too farfetched to assume that those are the nacelles' antimatter "pods" that had been repeatedly mentioned / suggested in the series.

Bob
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Old January 31 2013, 10:37 PM   #36
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

Metryq wrote: View Post
Redfern wrote: View Post
Into other words, a "jet engine" for the fabric of space/time.
That's what the Franz Joseph nomenclature suggests, but that is not what an Alcubierre drive is.
Yeah, I meant the terms Franz Joseph used.

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Old February 1 2013, 03:12 AM   #37
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

Hmm. If the front is a matter/energy sink and the aft is a matter/energy restoration then would it be more like a "tunneling engine"?
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Old February 1 2013, 12:22 PM   #38
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Hmm. If the front is a matter/energy sink and the aft is a matter/energy restoration then would it be more like a "tunneling engine"?
Are you thinking of the caterpillar drive Jane's Fighting Ships speculated in the mid 1980's the USSR's Typhoon-Class submarines might have (visualized in "The Hunt for Red October")?

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Old February 1 2013, 01:43 PM   #39
Timo
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

Well, "sink" and "source" are generic expressions for describing a vector field. "Acquisition" and "restoration" would be treknobabble to specify the nature of the vector field in question, and the operations performed on it. Sucking and blowing need not be part of the workings...

The Enterprise is propelled by matter-antimatter reactors.
(a very concise statement)
Actually, that would probably be as far from concise as can be, as Spock is selectively describing the one aspect of the propulsion system that would be of importance to his plan of blowing up the ship. It's no different from him saying that a car is propelled by gasoline if he intends to make a big fire and has no interest of propelling anything anywhere.

As for the spheres at the aft of the nacelles I guess it's not too farfetched to assume that those are the nacelles' antimatter "pods" that had been repeatedly mentioned / suggested in the series.
Possibly. But other explanations would more satisfactorily explain the absence of these spheres in certain situations: either just from the early versions of the ship, or then (if one goes the TOS rather than the TOS-R route) from certain stages of the ship's mission. Antimatter pods would always need to be there. Fancy exhaust filters would not...

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Old February 2 2013, 05:36 PM   #40
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

Timo wrote: View Post
The Enterprise is propelled by matter-antimatter reactors.
(a very concise statement)
Actually, that would probably be as far from concise as can be, as Spock is selectively describing the one aspect of the propulsion system that would be of importance to his plan of blowing up the ship. It's no different from him saying that a car is propelled by gasoline if he intends to make a big fire and has no interest of propelling anything anywhere.
Hmm...you are right but for a different reason. Since Spock doesn't make a distinction between warp and (normal) impulse drive, the logical conclusion would therefore be that the energy the m-am reactors provide equally powers the warp drive and the (nomal) impulse drive (ahead of the TMP impulse drive concept where m-am energy is directly fed to the impulse drive!).

Looks like TNG now has a problem explaining the impulse drive of the Enterprise-D ?

Bob
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Old February 3 2013, 08:52 PM   #41
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

Back to the original topic of the thread: I felt it helpful to take a look at the TOS Klingon Battlecruiser that does not have any rotating or glowing thingies, but probably just as the Enterprise needs the intake of stellar matter for warp drive and/or to replenish fuel.

The forward structure of the Klingon Battlecruiser's engineering hull reminded me a lot of the intake configuration of the UK's Sea Hawks jet fighters (considering that Matt Jefferies was quite a fan of aviation, that's possibly where he drew his inspiration for the Klingon Battlecruiser design from). I'd say that's where the Klingon ships suck in interstellar matter.

Bob
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Old February 3 2013, 09:17 PM   #42
Albertese
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

I've always thought this too. In fact, due to this, I think it's fun to assume that the majority of that wing structure is devoted to the functioning of the warp drive on the D-7 and not just the pylons and the nacelles.

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Old February 4 2013, 02:17 AM   #43
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

Yeah, I also like how on the D7 the top structure could be an intake as well. Then again, I like the idea of the ring structure behind the TOS Enterprise's main sensor being part of the intakes for the secondary hull
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Old February 4 2013, 08:09 AM   #44
Albertese
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Yeah, I also like how on the D7 the top structure could be an intake as well. Then again, I like the idea of the ring structure behind the TOS Enterprise's main sensor being part of the intakes for the secondary hull
This makes less sense to me, seeing as how those are obscured by the dish... I always imagined those to be part of the sensor/deflector hardware.

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Old February 4 2013, 12:03 PM   #45
Timo
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

the energy the m-am reactors provide equally powers the warp drive and the (normal) impulse drive
...Which makes "Corbomite Maneuver" a bit problematic, because Kirk feels that adding the output of the impulse drive will make a difference in their struggle against the tractor beam. Is he diverting joint power away from warp there? What good would that do in their predicament?

It would be odd if the ship's primary power could not be channeled into her secondary drive, when various later occasions have it being channeled into her weapons and shields, and later ships have it channeled to navigational deflectors or even communications systems. I guess the relevant question is, does impulse have its own power source in addition to enjoying "warp power" whenever the latter is available?

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