Question for the Parents on TrekBBS

[1001001]

thestrangequark wrote:

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^In general, though, the data don't support your experience. Adults who were spanked as children are generally less successful than those who were not spanked. And I certainly don't think one has to be physically punished to be punished.

I think this is one of my primary complaints. Some people paint it as a black and white situation: either you spank your kids, or they'll be animals running wild in the streets. There is a middle path.

I don't like the term "punishment" as much as I like the idea of natural/logical consequences. That's how learning takes place, IMHO. I think spanking "teaches" them the wrong lessons. JMHO

I've never had a situation, in 18 years of parenting, when spanking seemed necessary. I will admit that there were times I wanted to, but if I am brutally honest that was about my anger, not about some noble intention to "teach them something".

And just for the record, our 18 year old has a 4.2 GPA and is off to college this fall. The 10 year old is a straight A student, a black belt in Tae Kwon Do, and just the sweetest, kindest little boy you've ever met.

[thestrangequark]

^Agreed entirely. The two times my mother hit me, it was attention-getting, it wasn't the actual consequence. She followed up by explaining what I'd done wrong, why she'd hit me (the first time out of panic when I'd run into the road, and the second time out of panic/anger when I pushed my epileptic little sister down and she hit her head), and with the actual consequence -- which in these cases was making me understand the danger I had caused to myself and to my sister. Spanking as punishment seems lazy parenting to me.

[Kenbushway]

thestrangequark wrote:

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^In general, though, the data don't support your experience. Adults who were spanked as children are generally less successful than those who were not spanked. And I certainly don't think one has to be physically punished to be punished.

That is going to reverse as these new generations come into adult age. Majority have no discipline and have friends for parents.

[thestrangequark]

Kenbushway wrote:

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That is going to reverse as these new generations come into adult age. Majority have no discipline and have friends for parents.

Do you have evidence to substantiate that claim? Or is it just what you think you're seeing?


Because there is actual evidence showing the opposite:

Frequent use of CP (ie, mother's use of spanking more than twice in the previous month) when the child was 3 years of age was associated with increased risk for higher levels of child aggression when the child was 5 years of age (adjusted odds ratio: 1.49 [95% confidence interval: 1.2-1.8]; P < .0001), even with controlling for the child's level of aggression at age 3 and the aforementioned potential confounding factors and key demographic features.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20385647

The results indicate that parental CP uniquely contributes to negative behavioral adjustment in children at both 36 months and at 1st grade, with the effects at the earlier age more pronounced in children with difficult temperaments.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17874924

In a presentation, she explained that the group of 15 experts in child development and psychology found correlations between physical punishment and an increase in childhood anxiety and depression, an increase in behavioral problems, including aggression, and impaired cognitive development—even when the child’s prepunishment behavior and development were taken into consideration.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...r-not-to-spank

[KimM]

I was spanked as a child and also subjected to shaming. The shaming was far more effective a deterrent, I believe.

I spanked only a couple times and wish I had reacted differently. The heat of the moment can be dangerous for both parent and child. Sometimes parents are in as much need of time out as children.

[Robert Maxwell]

thestrangequark wrote:

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Do you have evidence to substantiate that claim? Or is it just what you think you're seeing?


Because there is actual evidence showing the opposite:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20385647

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17874924

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...r-not-to-spank

My son was spanked constantly by his mother and (more often) her boyfriend. He is almost 6 and has some serious aggression issues. I got custody of him about a month ago, and while I haven't spanked him at all, every time I raise my voice he runs away like he's afraid I'm going to beat him.

[Kenbushway]

thestrangequark wrote:

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Do you have evidence to substantiate that claim? Or is it just what you think you're seeing?


Because there is actual evidence showing the opposite:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20385647

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17874924

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...r-not-to-spank

There is no thinking, I am actually seeing it. Maybe its the region I am in but I fear for the future of the nation with the nitwits I've seen coming from the younger about to be adults generations. 650 students graduated with me, so far almost half have done nothing, a third of the half that has is pregnant with either #1 or #2 baby and they aren't in college or have decent careers.

[thestrangequark]

^Anecdotal evidence is not evidence. It is worse than worthless as evidence of what is actually happening in the world. Can you provide unbiased, real evidence that what you think you are seeing is actually occurring?

[thestrangequark]

Robert Maxwell wrote:

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My son was spanked constantly by his mother and (more often) her boyfriend. He is almost 6 and has some serious aggression issues. I got custody of him about a month ago, and while I haven't spanked him at all, every time I raise my voice he runs away like he's afraid I'm going to beat him.

Jesus, that's horrible. I'm so sorry you have to go through that. I hope that he starts to feel safer and more comfortable now that he's in a non-violent home. I hate to say good luck, I'd rather say good work, because it sounds like you're doing the right thing for him.

[Kestra]

RM's son is a real cutie, too.

My parents never spanked us or hit us in any way, though that was probably rather common in their culture growing up. I don't know that we ever did anything terribly bad or unsafe though, so I'm not sure how they would have reacted with some of the events in this thread. I don't think I'd ever spank a child of my own simply because I do have a temper and I'd never be able to trust that I wasn't doing it out of anger. Beyond that, I have zero experience in parenting and can't really speak much to any of this.

[Sector 7]

Kenbushway wrote:

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There is no thinking, I am actually seeing it. Maybe its the region I am in but I fear for the future of the nation with the nitwits I've seen coming from the younger about to be adults generations. 650 students graduated with me, so far almost half have done nothing, a third of the half that has is pregnant with either #1 or #2 baby and they aren't in college or have decent careers.

I have seen it, too. Don't bother trying to make some of these people understand, many claiming to have open minds do not.

Contrary to their belief, not every person who spanks a child is doing it in anger. Many of us who discipline our children are teaching them valuable life lessons. I have never struck my children in anger, because I was a victim of such behavior. My children know I love them and, now that they are grown parents, appreciate the lessons they learned. They can each count on one hand the number of times they were spanked. They still remember WHY it happened each time, because I explained it to them.

Beating a child is wrong, but proper punishment of a child teaches right from wrong. My boy could probably have been beaten with a 2"x4" and laugh at you (he is still hard-headed). His worse punishments were not being allowed to go camping or fishing with his friends. My girl, however, would break with a light pop to her bottom. For her, knowing I was disappointed in her actions was usually punishment enough.

[thestrangequark]

^My mind is open. Show me some evidence that you are correct and I will consider it. Is your mind open to the possibility that you are wrong?

[wissaboo]

My kids got a few swats on the bum when they were toddlers. I'm not gonna lie. Could I have handled it better? probably. Do I think I did them any harm? nope.

[Kenbushway]

thestrangequark wrote:

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^Anecdotal evidence is not evidence. It is worse than worthless as evidence of what is actually happening in the world. Can you provide unbiased, real evidence that what you think you are seeing is actually occurring?

Other than number difference. What is the difference between my 650 and the thousand used in the studies you provided?

[iguana_tonante]

Kenbushway wrote:

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There is no thinking

That much is obvious. Not to mention, the difference between anecdotes and statistics.

Sector 7 wrote:

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Don't bother trying to make some of these people understand, many claiming to have open minds do not.

And many claiming to be rightful are actually full of bullshit. Go figure.

Sector 7 wrote:

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Beating a child is wrong, but proper punishment of a child teaches right from wrong.

So you teach your child right from wrong... by doing something that you consider wrong yourself. Talk about mixed signals.

thestrangequark wrote:

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^My mind is open. Show me some evidence that you are correct and I will consider it. Is your mind open to the possibility that you are wrong?

Why would he need an open mind since he's so obviously right? Only people who are wrong like us need to open their minds!