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Old January 10 2013, 04:41 PM   #16
B.J.
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Just today there was a suggestion at Trek BBS to visit this link: http://www.slightlywarped.com/crapfa...rek_photos.htm
Hate to go off-topic here, but in one of the pics near the bottom at that link has Nimoy sitting at a table with a bunch of production personnel, and scattered across the table is a bunch of concept art, including one of the Klingon Bird of Prey. This is piece of concept art I don't think I've seen before, including the other unidentified pieces. (I do recognize the flat 4-nacelle Excelsior in Spacedock concept pic, though.) Anyone know if a better pic of these are available anywhere?
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Old January 10 2013, 05:07 PM   #17
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

Good question. Most of that looks unfamiliar. Is the BoP sketch in front of Nimoy based on the Empire Strikes Back shuttle? Are those Starfleet ground cars on the sketch atop that one?

My whole issue with retroactive continuity, mostly, is the lack of devoted research and effort to be accurate.
I can respect that - but it should be noted that TOS itself never bothered with devoted research or an effort to be accurate when managing its continuity.

Deciding that such lack of attention is okay within TOS but not within, say, the body of televised Trek smacks of a double standard. I mean, excluding non-TOS Trek from consideration is fine and well, as is drawing the limit elsewhere (accepting all onscreen stuff but not the animated bits, accepting official novels but not comics, etc), but using lack of attention as the argument is not something I could bring myself to agree with.

Deciding that the domes are ramscoops and saying so in a TNG episode is not all that different from retconning Spock's human ancestor back to life between "Corbomite Maneuver" and "Journey to Babel"...

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Old January 10 2013, 06:29 PM   #18
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

Timo wrote: View Post
retconning Spock's human ancestor back to life between "Corbomite Maneuver" and "Journey to Babel"...
Are you suggesting that Spock's mother died in one of those episodes?

In anycase, there are some technological differences between the TOS-verse and ENT-TNG-verse. It's not a slam dunk to assume that the domes would have the same function between the two continuities, IMO.
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Old January 10 2013, 07:18 PM   #19
Timo
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

Are you suggesting that Spock's mother died in one of those episodes?
I'm just reminding y'all of the fact that Spock's distant human ancestor was long dead in "Corbomite", but turned out to be her still living mother in "Journey to Babel". The universe hiccuped in between, and we're expected to pick up the pieces. Which we do, pretending that Spock was speaking of her mother all along, even though this is nothing but a clumsy retcon...

In anycase, there are some technological differences between the TOS-verse and ENT-TNG-verse. It's not a slam dunk to assume that the domes would have the same function between the two continuities, IMO.
But again, TOS itself is a mosaic of continuities. If we treat it as an intact whole, we could just as well extend the courtesy across the range of spinoffs.

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Old January 10 2013, 07:35 PM   #20
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

Timo wrote: View Post
Good question. Most of that looks unfamiliar. Is the BoP sketch in front of Nimoy based on the Empire Strikes Back shuttle? Are those Starfleet ground cars on the sketch atop that one?
The BoP is in the one closest to the camera. Seems to be showing off the different wing positions. As for the one that looks like the RoTJ (not ESB ) shuttle, I don't know what that one is. Would be nice to have better shots of these!
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Old January 10 2013, 07:49 PM   #21
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

Timo wrote: View Post
Are you suggesting that Spock's mother died in one of those episodes?
I'm just reminding y'all of the fact that Spock's distant human ancestor was long dead in "Corbomite", but turned out to be her still living mother in "Journey to Babel". The universe hiccuped in between, and we're expected to pick up the pieces. Which we do, pretending that Spock was speaking of her mother all along, even though this is nothing but a clumsy retcon...
Oh the irony because this not well researched at all. LOL And it's only a retcon if you read in more there than what is there
WNMHGB:
SPOCK: The fact one of my ancestors married a human female...
TCM:
SPOCK: However, it was well played. I regret not having learned more about this Balok. In some manner he was reminiscent of my father.
SCOTT: Then may heaven have helped your mother.
SPOCK: Quite the contrary. She considered herself a very fortunate Earth woman.
Last I checked, parents are ancestors. Where did distant come from?
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Old January 10 2013, 08:03 PM   #22
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

From the failure to use a more proper expression; it's clear the writer was not thinking in terms of this guy being, or having been, Spock's father.

Of course, it can be interpreted that way. It just takes effort and motivation. And motivation is offered by later Trek ideas superseding/complementing earlier Trek ideas, as usual. Just like we get nameless domes in TOS and then learn in TNG that they are called Bussard ramscoops.

And it's only a retcon if you read in more there than what is there
Not reading that the writer of the first episode disagreed with the writer of the second one would be reading too little, turning a blind eye, whistling and pretending. Making the two pieces fit together calls for filing away some of what is being said, and filling in some. Of course it's a retcon, and a far more blatant one than belatedly assigning an identity to some unnamed feature of Kirk's ship.

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Old January 10 2013, 08:48 PM   #23
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

Requires no effort or filing/filling at all because the ancestor went from being unspecified to specified. That's additional information, not a change of information.

It is this:
On the WNMHGB tombstone: James Kirk
Later in the series: James T. Kirk
Not this:
On the WNMHGB tombstone: James R. Kirk
Later in the series: James T. Kirk
Only the latter is a retcon.
In my opinion.

(Of course that was a deflection anyway; "distant human ancestor was long dead" was your interpretation of that line which is what I was referring to by "reading into it.")

------
As for the endcaps, no other nacelles on any other ship class have that whirly, blinky light-look so that would suggest that something unique was going on here. what is anyone's guess and i actually like that ambiguity; let's my imagination have a freer range.
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Last edited by BK613; January 10 2013 at 09:04 PM. Reason: typo
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Old January 10 2013, 09:06 PM   #24
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

Timo wrote: View Post
Are you suggesting that Spock's mother died in one of those episodes?
I'm just reminding y'all of the fact that Spock's distant human ancestor was long dead in "Corbomite", but turned out to be her still living mother in "Journey to Babel". The universe hiccuped in between, and we're expected to pick up the pieces. Which we do, pretending that Spock was speaking of her mother all along, even though this is nothing but a clumsy retcon...
BK613 beat me to it, but none of the dialogue supports a change where we would think of Spock's mom being dead.

It does require more interpretation and effort to think that she was dead though.


Timo wrote: View Post
In anycase, there are some technological differences between the TOS-verse and ENT-TNG-verse. It's not a slam dunk to assume that the domes would have the same function between the two continuities, IMO.
But again, TOS itself is a mosaic of continuities. If we treat it as an intact whole, we could just as well extend the courtesy across the range of spinoffs.
I'd argue that TOS was more internally consistent than later series - but out of practical reasons that there were fewer episodes to mess it up.

Even the example of "James R Kirk" can be attributed to a fallible and human god Gary Mitchell vs a retcon.

Last edited by blssdwlf; January 10 2013 at 10:02 PM.
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Old January 10 2013, 09:32 PM   #25
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

I am not totally convinced that the endcaps are Bussard collectors. If they are I do not expect them to be used under warp drive without undermining the shape and stability of the warp field.
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Old January 10 2013, 10:17 PM   #26
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"Even the example of "James R Kirk" can be attributed to a fallible and human god Gary Mitchell vs a retcon."
I read somewhere the "R" stood for "Rice" and was a nickname for Kirk at the Academy.

Considering the tombstone dates might just be the stardates to indicate Kirk's short career as captain, it would just be another evil farewell joke at the expense of Kirk.

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Old January 10 2013, 11:28 PM   #27
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

Timo wrote: View Post
Good question. Most of that looks unfamiliar. Is the BoP sketch in front of Nimoy based on the Empire Strikes Back shuttle? Are those Starfleet ground cars on the sketch atop that one?
One of the sketches does seem to show what might be movie Trek-era ground vehicles, but it's impossible to see whether they would roll by wheels or hover (and if there aren't wheels, one might also argue it could be a spacedock shuttle concept instead). There are two copies of the four-nacelled Excelsior concept sketch, a BOP concept that looks pretty close to the final version, and it's hard to judge about the one that resembles the Lambda class Star Wars shuttle. I'm tempted to wonder if perhaps it's intended as a sketch for a Starfleet facility, with the white parts being sails or arches, and one of the wide shuttles flying nearby. I could entirely be wrong on that of course.

It's also possible that the "vehicle" sketch is actually a bridge or room with control panels, since there's a large rectangular object that's bright yellow (viewscreen? Could be a 23rd century advertisement/billboard if these were ground vehicles). The vehicles would then be control panels. Perhaps a concept for Excelsior's bridge?

I rather like the Khan picture in any case.
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Old January 11 2013, 09:37 AM   #28
Timo
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

I'd argue that TOS was more internally consistent than later series - but out of practical reasons that there were fewer episodes to mess it up.
Retconning TOS is easier than retconning other shows, yes, thanks to there being less of the (always inherently faulty) material to mend. And also because generations of fanboys have spent time and effort doing so already, and have sometimes worked their favorite solutions back into the Trek universe, by directly contributing to the shows and movies, or by influencing people working on those.

OTOH, TOS is more inconsistent inherently than the others, because of not being conceived as serialized. OTTH, it's more static than the others, as there was less impetus to introduce changes than in a show expected to stay on air for the better part of a decade come hell or high water. OTFH, it still lived long enough to go through a number of people in charge of pseudotechnology and aesthetics, while several of the seven-year spinoffs enjoyed stability in this respect.

In the end, though, a count of hands isn't all that relevant. It's just Star Trek, part of a larger whole that exhibits insanely good continuity for an entity that wouldn't really need to. Indeed, the continuity is a prime attraction, no doubt contributing to its considerable recognizability over perhaps equally long-lived but more anthology-type fictional universes.

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Old January 30 2013, 08:25 PM   #29
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

Since the Enterprise appears to travel in normal space at FTL speeds (rather than ducking into hyperspace), I've seen multiple suggestions that the ship uses an Alcubierre drive.

Note that the glittering domes on the front of the warp engines are offset by domes at the rear (later in the series). North pole/south pole of the warp field?

The artificial black hole and "white hole" of the drive would dovetail with the engine effectiveness against fluctuating gravity fields ("Naked Time").
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Old January 30 2013, 10:54 PM   #30
Timo
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Re: TOS Enterprise - function of warp nacelles' caps?

North pole/south pole of the warp field?
A favored interpretation in many early fan works, the most prominently in Franz Joseph's Technical Manual.

...So, was there ever any intent or effort to light up the rear domes/spheres, too? Was that dropped before the concept of lighting up the inner lengthwise slits?

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