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Old January 30 2013, 12:54 PM   #16
Timo
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Re: How long does it take to traverse the UFP?

Wasn't there a comment in Balance of Terror about the Romulan's lacking warp drive back during the war?
Nope.

The episode gave three key specs about the old war, none of which touched upon warp drive:

1) fought with primitive atomic weapons
2) fought in primitive space vessels
3) (apparently as the result) there was no mercy given, no prisoners taken, no ship-to-ship visual communication

Later on in the episode, the heroes fight a modern Romulan vessel that evades them at warp three, even though Scotty claims "their power is simple impulse". This in no way establishes anything about the old war a century prior, as Scotty didn't make his claim without first having a look at the ship in question - he wasn't basing his (mistaken?) assessment solely on historical records or anything.

Some fan sources did interpret this all as the Romulans not having had warp drive until late in the game - perhaps as late as the second season of TOS! But onscreen Trek has never supported the idea that Romulans would have lacked the secret of warp at any point of their history. For all we know, they were capable of warp long before they even left Vulcan.

Curiously, we never quite learn who won the old Romulan war. The Neutral Zone between the powers suggests a stalemate conclusion to the conflict...

Suppose a typical Federation citizen wants to travel to Bajor or some place like that from Earth to see antiquities in museums. How long would it take?
DS9 was pretty consistent about this only taking about a week, at least with Starfleet vessels and craft.

Then again, DS9 also suggested that Bajor wasn't really all that distant a place. It just happened to border on the territory of an unyielding enemy, in a direction where the UFP hasn't been able to expand much, so it certainly qualified as "frontier".

Sometimes our DS9 heroes discussed getting from Bajor to places other than Earth. In "Fasctination", it was 300 ly from Bajor to Regulus III; since Regulus is a real place about 80 ly from Earth, at least in our universe, Bajor would probably in turn be about 150-250 ly from Earth, if we accept that it is "to the left" of Earth and recognize that Regulus is "to the lower right". A couple of hundred ly in a week is average going in 24th century terms, and Archer in his warp 5 ship did something quite comparable in "The Expanse".

We aren't really into major complication or contradiction territory here, then. It's just that some parts of the amoeba-like UFP appear to be a lot farther out than Bajor. Jouret of "Best of Both Worlds" fame was another frontier location, an "outermost colony", and it again took at most a week to move the action from there to Earth, although this time at high warp in a very fast starship.

We don't know how long it really took for the comparable fight to move from the frontier colony of Ivor Prime, outside UFP borders just like Bajor (and apparently accompanied by a Deep Space station just like Bajor), to Earth in ST:FC. The fight moved from Ivor to Typhon in an unknown amount of time, and Typhon was mentioned in TNG "Cause and Effect", so we have some ballpark data there. Unfortunately, some of it gives minimum estimates (at least hours from Ivor to Typhon, or else our E-E heroes would not have dreamed of joining the fight), the rest maximum estimates (a 23rd century starship took at most three weeks to reach Typhon from Earth in the TNG episode), so it cancels out.

We do end up with a general feeling that the borders of the UFP are about a week away from Earth for anybody bothering to make the effort, save for individual special cases: some colonies or member systems may be thousands of lightyears away and probably take months to reach, while the RNZ may scrape really close to Vulcan and Earth at its closest point.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old January 30 2013, 01:01 PM   #17
SicOne
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Location: Omaha, NE
Re: How long does it take to traverse the UFP?

We know from publications and sites like Ex Astris that ships can go Warp whatever in cruise mode indefinitely, Warp whatever-plus at maximum speed for an undetermined period of time, and Warp whatever-plus-plus for twelve hours. It also stands to reason that they may be capable of traveling at, say, Ludicrous Speed for however long it takes to move the action along...
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Old January 30 2013, 02:12 PM   #18
Timo
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Re: How long does it take to traverse the UFP?

Indeed, several TNG episodes mention that the E-D has to pay a price for her repeated use of highest possible speeds: the expectation would be that a ship of this class would not need the sort of maintenance she gets in, say, "Phantasms".

So there isn't such a thing as "impossible speed" vs. "possible speed". There are just different levels of risk to be taken. Sit on the safety valve, and even Kirk's old rust bucket will reach Ludicrous Speed. Moments before she blows up, that is.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old January 30 2013, 03:18 PM   #19
Dale Sams
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Re: How long does it take to traverse the UFP?

The episode gave three key specs about the old war, none of which touched upon warp drive:

1) fought with primitive atomic weapons
2) fought in primitive space vessels
3) (apparently as the result) there was no mercy given, no prisoners taken, no ship-to-ship visual communication
It's probably just as well that Enterprise went off the air. The amount of fourth season style fanwanking to make this true would have been polarizing. They would have had to create a scenario such as : "We're straining all our resources just to get something that can move in space. Throwing together ships at a slapdash pace with no time to install phasers...slapping atomic missile launchers on cargo ships and shoving them to the front.."

On the one hand it's kind of cool and on the other, great amounts of people would have bitched about the creators tying their own hands with continuity.
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Old January 30 2013, 05:35 PM   #20
throwback
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Re: How long does it take to traverse the UFP?

I believe that it was possible to create a series based on information that was provided in four of the series. (TAS is kinda iffy.)

I checked a transcript site for "Balance of Terror". There is no warp three mention. However, there is a mention to emergency warp, and Kirk ordering his helmsman to parallel the enemy vessel and to match their course and speed. (http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/9.htm)

Some fan sources did interpret this all as the Romulans not having had warp drive until late in the game - perhaps as late as the second season of TOS! But onscreen Trek has never supported the idea that Romulans would have lacked the secret of warp at any point of their history. For all we know, they were capable of warp long before they even left Vulcan.
From "Little Green Men":
Quark:
Forget the timeline. The one we're going to create will be better. Once we get things in order here, we''ll contact the Ferengi homeworld and sell them our ship. The Ferengi will have warp technology centuries before humans or Klingons or even the Vulcans. We'll establish an economic empire beyond even Grand Nagus Zek's wildest dreams. And I'll control it all.
From Insurrection:
Dougherty:
On Earth, petroleum once turned petty thugs into world leaders. Warp drive transformed a bunch of Romulan thugs into an empire. We can handle the Son'a. I'm not worried about that.
Picard:
Someone probably said the same thing about the Romulans a century ago.
Finally, we know something else about the Earth-Romulan War. The Romulans ships were painted like giant bird-of-preys.
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Old January 30 2013, 09:32 PM   #21
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: How long does it take to traverse the UFP?

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
The episode gave three key specs about the old war, none of which touched upon warp drive:

1) fought with primitive atomic weapons
2) fought in primitive space vessels
3) (apparently as the result) there was no mercy given, no prisoners taken, no ship-to-ship visual communication
It's probably just as well that Enterprise went off the air. The amount of fourth season style fanwanking to make this true would have been polarizing. They would have had to create a scenario such as : "We're straining all our resources just to get something that can move in space. Throwing together ships at a slapdash pace with no time to install phasers...slapping atomic missile launchers on cargo ships and shoving them to the front.."

On the one hand it's kind of cool and on the other, great amounts of people would have bitched about the creators tying their own hands with continuity.
IIRC, the aborted Romulan war movie Star Trek: The Beginning simply ran with ENT's retcons - the lack of face-to-face contact was because the Romulans attacked Earth with drone ships, which were equippes with warp drive and cloaking devices. The "atomic weapon" was a WWIII relic stolen by the hero who also steals the warp seven prototype USS Spartan and sets off to Romulus to win the war himself.

Script review and details here: www​.aintitcool.com/node/34635 and here: http://filmjournal.net/oldboy/2009/0...the-beginning/
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Old January 30 2013, 10:23 PM   #22
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: How long does it take to traverse the UFP?

There is no warp three mention.


"Forget the timeline. The one we're going to create will be better. Once we get things in order here, we''ll contact the Ferengi homeworld and sell them our ship. The Ferengi will have warp technology centuries before humans or Klingons or even the Vulcans. We'll establish an economic empire beyond even Grand Nagus Zek's wildest dreams. And I'll control it all."
I guess we can safely dismiss the idea that Vulcans or Klingons got warp centuries after 1947. We know for a (pre-"Little Green Men") fact that humans did not, after all.

Either Quark is just plain ignorant - or then he is seeing the immense marketing potential of the time machine, and thinking that Rom's clever technology can take him to a timepoint centuries before the date when the three mentioned cultures did first get their respective FTL drives.

"Someone probably said the same thing about the Romulans a century ago."
Doesn't mean he said it when Romulans got warp drive...

...But it would make great sense for somebody to say such a thing in the 2270s or so, at the time the Romulans finally began openly interacting with the Federation. Indeed, in ST6, we see Starfleet treat the Romulans as trustworthy allies in the fight against the Klingons.

Finally, we know something else about the Earth-Romulan War. The Romulans ships were painted like giant bird-of-preys.
Yes, this, plus the fact that it happened "a century" prior to the TOS episode, whatever that means exactly. Not much to go by there.

They would have had to create a scenario such as..
..the one created by the novelists after the show went off the air.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old January 31 2013, 12:44 AM   #23
SicOne
Commodore
 
Location: Omaha, NE
Re: How long does it take to traverse the UFP?

What no one knows before now is that Rom took the "Little Green Men" ship for an unauthorized jaunt, accidentally got too close to the Sun, slingshotted and ended up in the middle of a generational ship convoy outbound from Vulcan. He traded them the secrets of warp technology in return for some tube grubs. They were so grateful to him that they named their planet and their new civilization after him. Hence...Romulans.

You're welcome.
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Old January 31 2013, 03:51 AM   #24
blssdwlf
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Re: How long does it take to traverse the UFP?

throwback wrote: View Post
From "Little Green Men":
Quark:
Forget this timeline. The one we're going to create will be better. Once we get things in order here, we''ll contact the Ferengi homeworld and sell them our ship. The Ferengi will have warp technology centuries before humans or Klingons or even the Vulcans. We'll establish an economic empire beyond even Grand Nagus Zek's wildest dreams. And I'll control it all.
That's an interesting line. Some further dialogue for context:

NOG: No. They don't have universal translators. I recognize those uniforms from my guidebook. They're from the twentieth century.
ROM: The twentieth century? You mean we traveled back through time?
NOG: More than four hundred years. Those are military uniforms from one of the old nation states. Australia or something.

Quark's general statement is pretty close to the dates from "First Contact". If he believes they are more than 400 years in the past in the 20th century then 1900 + 200 is pretty close (within 40 years) to 2063's first warp flight.

Based on that dialogue and "First Contact" not directly attributing the Vulcans with already having Warp drive, maybe the Vulcans at this time were using another kind of FTL drive?
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Old January 31 2013, 04:51 AM   #25
Pavonis
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Re: How long does it take to traverse the UFP?

Or perhaps Quark just isn't that knowledgeable about history. I've never subscribed to the idea that every word from a character says must be spot-on accurate and infallible. For Quark, how much profit is there in being generally familiar with the state of galactic society several centuries in the past?
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Old January 31 2013, 06:50 AM   #26
throwback
Captain
 
Re: How long does it take to traverse the UFP?

I don't think this question can be answered. In one season alone, say season 6, we have seen the Enterprise-D operating at both ends of the Federation. (According to a map from Insurrection, the territory of the Federation is bordered on the 'west' by the Cardassian Union and on the 'east' by the Klingons/Romulans.)

However, I have issues with the maps seen in Star Trek, for they either underestimate the size of the galaxy or overestimate the amount of territory explored.

* "The Explored Galaxy": This map shows the locations of Alpha Centauri and Sol. Knowing the distance between the two, approximately 4 light years, I learned from this map that the galactic barrier is approximately 20 light years from Earth.

* Starting in "The Emissary", we see a map of the galaxy showing territory explored. (The map is seen to the right of Worf in this image - http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...missary098.jpg) The area covered seems more than the 19,000 light years (19% of the MWG) that Wesley said that the Federation had explored by then.

I know from the movie First Contact that the Federation is
spread out over 8,000 light years.
One of the senses for the word spread is,
The extent or limit to which something is or can be spread; range.
(http://www.thefreedictionary.com/spread)

I found this website, http://www.anycalculator.com/warpcalculator.htm, which lists travel times. I took this measurement above, and use it as one of the variables.

* TOS Warp Scale
** Warp 1 8,000 years to travel from one end to the other
** Warp 2 1,000 ""
** Warp 3 296 ""
** Warp 4 125 ""
** Warp 5 64 ""
** Warp 6 37 "" (the cruising warp speed of the Enterprise)
** Warp 7 23 ""
** Warp 8 16 "" (the emergency warp speed of the Enterprise)

* TNG Warp Scale
** Warp 1 8,000 years to travel from one end to the other
** Warp 2 794 ""
** Warp 3 205 ""
** Warp 4 79 ""
** Warp 5 37 ""
** Warp 6 20 ""
** Warp 7 12 ""
** Warp 8 8 ""
** Warp 9 5 ""
** Warp 9.9 1 "" (the maximum speed available to starships in the 2370s)

Like I said above, I feel it is impossible to gauge travel times for the writers ignored those constraints and had the Enterprise-D operating at both ends of the Federation in one season.

For fun, if the galactic barrier is 20 light years from Earth, the Enterprise operating at warp factor 6 could have reached the barrier in about 34 days.
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Old January 31 2013, 07:20 AM   #27
Albertese
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Re: How long does it take to traverse the UFP?

throwback wrote: View Post
...

* Starting in "The Emissary", we see a map of the galaxy showing territory explored. (The map is seen to the right of Worf in this image - http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...missary098.jpg) The area covered seems more than the 19,000 light years (19% of the MWG) that Wesley said that the Federation had explored by then.

...

This particular image does't bother me... After all, 19% is nearly 1/5, and that image looks to be about that to my eye. (I'm not saying I measured it or anything, but it looks close enough to one fifth for my taste.)

--Alex
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Old January 31 2013, 07:33 AM   #28
throwback
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Re: How long does it take to traverse the UFP?

That is why I said "seems". I am eyeballing it.

I have found a copy of the map. (http://www.st-spike.org/images/graph..._galaxymap.jpg)

The area of exploration is from 120 degrees to 240 degrees.
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Old January 31 2013, 04:07 PM   #29
SicOne
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Re: How long does it take to traverse the UFP?

throwback wrote: View Post
That is why I said "seems". I am eyeballing it.

I have found a copy of the map. (http://www.st-spike.org/images/graph..._galaxymap.jpg)

The area of exploration is from 120 degrees to 240 degrees.
All I get when I click on this link is "Access Denied".

However, just because Wesley said 19% of the galaxy had been explored doesn't necessarily mean (1) it was all by the Federation's assets, i.e they could have acquired information about space "southeast" and "east" of Federation space by the Klingons, and (2) it IS Federation space. There was a line from the DS9 pilot "Emissary" in which Sisko and Dax knew where they had emerged from the Bajoran Wormhole in the Gamma Quadrant because an earlier Federation probe had mapped that area and transmitted its findings back to the Federation.

A few hundred years of warp probes in all directions of the compass and in three dimensions will cover quite a bit of area. In fact, with the current crop of Trek literature incorporating slipstream drive, it's not too farfetched to envision probes studying the entirety of the Milky Way over the next few years, lit-time.
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Old January 31 2013, 08:25 PM   #30
Timo
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Re: How long does it take to traverse the UFP?

There was a line from the DS9 pilot "Emissary" in which Sisko and Dax knew where they had emerged from the Bajoran Wormhole in the Gamma Quadrant because an earlier Federation probe had mapped that area and transmitted its findings back to the Federation.
To nitpick, we didn't learn that it would have been a Federation probe, and we didn't learn that it would have actually visited that location. We could be speaking of an ancient mission whose findings were available to the Feds, or of long-base interferometry studies made possible by the use of probing spacecraft sent just a few thousand lightyears away from each other - or of a mission involving no spacecraft as such, and referred to as a "probe" simply because it probed into the Gamma Quadrant with good-quality telescopes.

We get more definite information from VOY "Friendship One", where a warp spacecraft from Earth is very explicitly quoted with the ability to cross a quarter of the galaxy within no more than 300 years, and possibly within 170 years already. This would support the view that the Federation (especially thanks to its more advanced early members) had plenty of capability for charting spots everywhere in the galaxy and beyond.

Whether those spots put together would add up to 19% of the galaxy is a wholly different matter. A mission covering 70,000 ly will only create a thin thread of explored space between the endpoints; spacecraft sensors only reach across a dozen lightyears even in the most extreme cases. We can't assume that every galactic probe would have been carrying a device on par with the Argus Array, when even the big manned starships have nothing comparable aboard.

Then there's this map from "The Chase":

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...hechase068.jpg

Doesn't necessarily tell us much about the Federation, though: Professor Galen would probably have been showing Picard a map of ancient civilizations, considering his profession. Heck, he's the sort who'd use a map of ancient civilizations to find his way to a conference on Bolarus, or a vacation on Risa! But knowledge of these civilizations would be plausible if the UFP had knowledge of the grids shown in "The Emissary", as the grids would at least overlap if not quite cover these mysterious amber outlines.

Timo Saloniemi
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