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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old January 29 2013, 11:33 PM   #16
Robert Comsol
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

Originally, starship personnel (in contrast to starbase personnel) had the Enterprise's insignia.

Then, all Commodores and Admirals and Starbase personnel wore that "flower" insignia.

But then, it also became the insignia of the USS Lexington (that's the only starship we've seen that has this insignia).

Notice Commodore Wesley's high command chair (neither Exeter or Defiant had this chair), looks like the Lexington might be Starfleet's flagship (in the mirror universe, ISS Enterprise apparently is the flagship there)

Bob
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; January 29 2013 at 11:45 PM.
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Old January 30 2013, 12:12 AM   #17
Keith1701
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Good find, DakotaSmith!
I agree too.
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Old January 30 2013, 02:09 AM   #18
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Originally, starship personnel (in contrast to starbase personnel) had the Enterprise's insignia.
Ugh. There's also a secretary wearing the Enterprise arrowhead at Starbase 11 in The Menagerie, Part I [http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...part1hd021.jpg, at row 7, column 3 of http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/thumbnail...lbum=12&page=1]. I just close my eyes and pretend these don't exist, or chalk them up as costume errors.

Then, all Commodores and Admirals and Starbase personnel wore that "flower" insignia.

But then, it also became the insignia of the USS Lexington (that's the only starship we've seen that has this insignia).
But, isn't Wesley the only officer whose insignia we get a good look at on the Lexington? I always thought that he wore the flower because he was normally assigned to starbase/space station, but he was in command of the battle fleet in wargames against the M5. If that was the case, then we never see the Lexington insignia. Now the question would then become, where was the captain of the Lexington, and that I have no answer for.

Notice Commodore Wesley's high command chair (neither Exeter or Defiant had this chair), looks like the Lexington might be Starfleet's flagship (in the mirror universe, ISS Enterprise apparently is the flagship there)

Bob
Well, the high-back could just be a normal variant, too, with no special significance, couldn't it?
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Old January 30 2013, 04:40 AM   #19
Nerys Myk
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

My rationalization for non-Enterprise personnel wearing the delta is it's a fleet emblem, not a ship emblem.
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Old January 30 2013, 04:46 AM   #20
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
My rationalization for non-Enterprise personnel wearing the delta is it's a fleet emblem, not a ship emblem.
That works, plus it meshes with adopting the arrowhead as the emblem of all of Starfleet better, I think.
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Old January 30 2013, 11:05 AM   #21
Robert Comsol
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
But, isn't Wesley the only officer whose insignia we get a good look at on the Lexington? I always thought that he wore the flower because he was normally assigned to starbase/space station, but he was in command of the battle fleet in wargames against the M5. If that was the case, then we never see the Lexington insignia. Now the question would then become, where was the captain of the Lexington, and that I have no answer for.
That space station in "The Ultimate Computer" was already under the jurisdiction of Commodore Enwright. To think that Robert Wesley replaced the Lexington's captain in a training exercise (!) that had been tested in previous simulations (!) would constitute quite a mobbing career blow to the actual captain. I'd rather like to think that this hadn't been the case.

Bob
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Old January 30 2013, 11:15 AM   #22
Robert Comsol
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
My rationalization for non-Enterprise personnel wearing the delta is it's a fleet emblem, not a ship emblem.
The officers in the "Court-Martial" starbase club and the (hard to recognize) uniform insignias of the Defiant's crew in "The Tholian Web" would seem to justify this theory, but then there are the insignias of the Constellation (Commodore Decker!) and the Exeter to be considered / explained (i.e. why should Enterprise have a general fleet emblem and these two other ships don't?)

I have this pet theory according to which every seven years the achievements of Starfleet's starships are evaluated and the "best" ship is honored by adapting its insignia for Starfleet (all non-starship personnel).

It would appear that by the time of TOS Lexington has become this ship. The previous winner was Pike's Enterprise (some Starfleet non-starship uniforms still wear the delta) and after TOS it will be the Enterprise again (and maybe together with another starship with a circular insignia. )

The only unseen insignia I believe we can all have a pretty good idea what it did look like is the one of the Intrepid. Because of its Vulcan crew it most likely looked like an IDIC.
Just my 0.02 $.

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Old January 30 2013, 11:48 AM   #23
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

Here's a lively discussion from a few months back on known insignia in TOS, TAS, and ENT, and a squadron organization proposal. The whole thread is well worth reading, and not that long.
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Old January 30 2013, 03:38 PM   #24
Nerys Myk
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
My rationalization for non-Enterprise personnel wearing the delta is it's a fleet emblem, not a ship emblem.
The officers in the "Court-Martial" starbase club and the (hard to recognize) uniform insignias of the Defiant's crew in "The Tholian Web" would seem to justify this theory, but then there are the insignias of the Constellation (Commodore Decker!) and the Exeter to be considered / explained (i.e. why should Enterprise have a general fleet emblem and these two other ships don't?)
The Constellation and the Exeter belong to different fleets.
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Old January 31 2013, 01:13 AM   #25
Masao
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

Good work, DakotaSmith!
Now, can you track this down?

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Old January 31 2013, 09:43 PM   #26
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

According to internal memos there was discussion that the insignia on the Enterprise uniforms were for "starship crews", the ones seen in Charlie X were merchant marine like, etc. There's an amusing memo where Justman rags on Theiss about a mistake re a fellow ship Captain's insignia, but by the point that memo was written they'll already blown it and have different insignias for Decker and Tracy so the die was cast.
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Old January 31 2013, 10:29 PM   #27
Robert Comsol
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

Maurice wrote: View Post
There's an amusing memo where Justman rags on Theiss about a mistake re a fellow ship Captain's insignia, but by the point that memo was written they'll already blown it and have different insignias for Decker and Tracy so the die was cast.
That's a story I'd like to hear or a memo I'd like to read.

Considering all the fuzz TOS made about the prestige and privilege of being a starship captain (including Commodores) I think Theiss draw the correct conclusion that starship insignias should be individual and unique.

With the merchant marine it's a different story. Rewatching "The Trouble with Tribbles" recently I noticed during the K-7 brawl one bystander wearing the Antares costume from "Charlie X" (and another one wearing Finnegan's costume).

Bob
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Old January 31 2013, 10:35 PM   #28
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

^ Yeah, I'd like to read that memo, too.
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Old January 31 2013, 10:57 PM   #29
Harvey
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

Here's the memo Maurice is referring to:

TO: Bill Theiss
FROM: Bob Justman
SUBJECT: STARSHIP EMBLEMS
DATE: December 18, 1967

Whilst sitting in Dailies today, it was noticed that a Starship Captain (from another Starship) was wearing an emblem unfamiliar to yours truly. I have checked the occurences out with Mr. Roddenberry, who has reassured me that all Starship personnel wear the Starship emblem that we have established for our Enterprise Crew Members to wear.

Doubtless this situation has arisen due to the fact that a different Starship emblem was used last season on “CHARLIE X”. However, the personnel of that other ship in that show were the equivalent of merchant marine or freighter personnel -- and therefore not entitled to bear this proud insignia on their individual and collective breasts.

Please do not do anything to correct this understandable mistake in the present episode. However, should we have Starfleet personnel in any other episodes, please make certain that they were the proper emblem.

Under penalty of death!

Signed this 18th day of December, in the year of our Lord, 1967, by

ROBERT H. JUSTMAN
Chief Inquisitor

CC: Gene Roddenberry
John M. Lucas
D.C. Fontana
Gregg Peters

RHJ:sts
P.S. A carven “I’m sorry!” will be sufficient.
R.H.J.
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Old January 31 2013, 11:13 PM   #30
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Re: Starfleet Command Insignia

^ Wow. What a bombshell! Thanks!
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