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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old January 29 2013, 05:56 PM   #16
R. Star
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x01 The Child

Well the Child is just an absurd episode that really falls in the lines of what the hell? So this space tinker bell pretty much makes first contact with species by raping women and then being born as one of them. I don't know if that is more disturbing or the fact that everyone was perfectly fine with it. Save Riker, who was just petty and jealous, and Worf who just wanted to kill something.

As for the Crusher/Pulaski change? Well Crusher... I find it funny she just left Wesley there. Not that I blame her even if that is dead-beat parenting. Though I guess if you go for the theory that Picard is his dad, then one parent was still around. As for Pulaski? I can't say I cared for her too much, but she did bring one thing to the crew that was missing. Drama and conflict. Everyone in TNG is too hunky dory in their clique bubble and it's nice every now and then to see an outsider shake things up.
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Old January 29 2013, 06:08 PM   #17
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x01 The Child

R. Star wrote: View Post
Though I guess if you go for the theory that Picard is his dad, then one parent was still around.
Oh, my god. Do you have any idea how much of a bast*** that would make Picard if the show actually went with that? If Picard really was Wesley's father, than not only was Jack giving all his fatherly love to someone that was not his son, but Picard is also the person responsible for getting Jack killed on the away mission. This is the kind of action I would expect from an EVIL PERSON, not the show's central hero.
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Old January 29 2013, 06:14 PM   #18
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x01 The Child

Jeyl wrote: View Post
I do like this one line from Picard in regards to Wesley potentially leaving the ship.

PICARD: Mixed feelings for all of us.
I'd like to think that line implies that there are crew members who don't look at Wesley as the sweet perfect writer's pet that he is and are more than happy to see him leave the ship for good. It also serves as a funny TNG Recut moment where Wesley is condemned to death, Picard tells him the everyone has mixed feelings, and than immediately cut to Wesley about to be beamed into outer space alive inside a coffin.
It's my understanding that Wesley getting bayoneted by the vicious animal things in "Hide and Q" was popular in some fan circles too.
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Old January 29 2013, 06:23 PM   #19
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x01 The Child

Jeyl wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Though I guess if you go for the theory that Picard is his dad, then one parent was still around.
Oh, my god. Do you have any idea how much of a bast*** that would make Picard if the show actually went with that? If Picard really was Wesley's father, than not only was Jack giving all his fatherly love to someone that was not his son, but Picard is also the person responsible for getting Jack killed on the away mission. This is the kind of action I would expect from an EVIL PERSON, not the show's central hero.
Nah, you don't even have to go the evil route. That could be the foundation of a dramatic character conflict. Jack Crusher was supposed to be a good friend of Picard's. But he sleeps with his wife, gets her pregnant and they have to hide it for the sake of the marriage which Beverly puts first. Then Picard gets Jack killed on that mission, in the line of duty, not out of spite, I could see that eating at Picard for years to come. Especially since he has to see both Beverly and Wesley daily. Which would also explain why Picard is putting up with that "presumptuous child" playing on his bridge. Alternatively Beverly could just not tell Picard and he doesn't find out until halfway through the series. Both would've been great character pieces that don't require Picard to be evil. Just a man who made a mistake.
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Old January 29 2013, 06:38 PM   #20
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x01 The Child

R. Star wrote: View Post
Alternatively Beverly could just not tell Picard and he doesn't find out until halfway through the series.
Or he doesn't learn the truth until Wesley's hair falls out.
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Old January 29 2013, 06:54 PM   #21
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x01 The Child

R. Star wrote: View Post
Just a man who made a mistake.
Kind of hard to relate to a man who makes that kind of a mistake who also preaches about how grand and noble the human race is. And you know what? I can imagine Gene Roddenberry going with this idea. After all, he preached about how in the future there will be no greed even though he himself was a greedy pill who actually ripped off talented folks who worked on the show.

And I'm still dead set on the fact that there is almost nothing redeemable about Picard sleeping AND fathering a child with Beverly Crusher while she was still married to Jack. It's such a betrayal of his character even after he gives up those preachy antics.
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Old January 29 2013, 07:08 PM   #22
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x01 The Child

R. Star wrote: View Post
Well Crusher... I find it funny she just left Wesley there. Not that I blame her even if that is dead-beat parenting.
Are you serious?

She gets a promoted to head of Starfleet Medical and consequently transfers from the ship to Starfleet HQ in San Francisco. The plan is that he will join her in a few weeks, but he decides he wants to stay on the ship and she gives him permission to do so. It's not deadbeat parenting at all—it's more like letting him go to college out of state.

Ironically, a year later she will accept a demotion back to her previous position and transfer back to the Enterprise, presumably out of a desire to be with her son, only to see him leave the ship for the Academy in San Francisco after another year.
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Old January 29 2013, 07:16 PM   #23
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x01 The Child

Jeyl wrote:
And I'm still dead set on the fact that there is almost nothing redeemable about Picard sleeping AND fathering a child with Beverly Crusher while she was still married to Jack.
This is an assumption. Do we know whether Picard and Beverly had a relationship before she met Jack? It took several months for Beverly to decide what she thought of Jack. Jack might have assumed it was his child, and they married afterwards. All three parties apparently knew Walker Keel.

And as much as I hate flashbacks, I wish we had seen the events leading to Jack's death, and Picard's grief.
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Old January 29 2013, 07:24 PM   #24
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x01 The Child

Melakon wrote: View Post
Do we know whether Picard and Beverly had a relationship before she met Jack?
They did not. From Conspiracy:
KEEL: Do you recall the night you introduced Jack Crusher to Beverly?
PICARD: You know full well I hadn't even met Beverly then. You introduced them.
Here's some interesting story background from the novels:

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Old January 29 2013, 07:37 PM   #25
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x01 The Child

Given that Picard didn't know Beverly when she met Jack, there are still those months she was undecided, and she could have met Picard then. She's not aware Picard was in love with her until "Attached", but you can have sex with someone without being in love with them.

Really though, the writers just wimped out because they didn't want to nail it down.
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Old January 29 2013, 07:48 PM   #26
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x01 The Child

Melakon wrote: View Post
Really though, the writers just wimped out because they didn't want to nail it down.
This is probably the only instance in Star Trek writing where I will gladly give the writers who wimped out a big bona fide gold medal for not pursuing this story line. The last thing TNG needed was developing more of Wesley's character at the expense of more likable characters.
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Old January 29 2013, 07:55 PM   #27
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x01 The Child

What TNG needed was someone who knew how to write convincing dialogue for a teenager. Then the Wesley Hate wouldn't be so strong. Even Wil hated him sometimes.
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Old January 29 2013, 08:03 PM   #28
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x01 The Child

Melakon wrote: View Post
What TNG needed was someone who knew how to write convincing dialogue for a teenager. Then the Wesley Hate wouldn't be so strong. Even Wil hated him sometimes.
Early in the series run, especially the first season, they didn't write convincing dialogue for the adults either. Yar and S1 Worf were even worse than Wesley in that department.
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Old January 29 2013, 10:29 PM   #29
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x01 The Child

MikeS wrote: View Post
A very obvious "Pro-choice" vibe going on here -
"Captain, do whatever you feel is necessary to protect the ship, but know this: I'm going to have this baby."
"Then it seems that the discussion is over."
This stood out to me last time I rewatched as well. Perhaps its one of those things which only becomes obvious in hindsight, but it did leave me re-evaluating the episode as being quite surprisingly topical in this sense. Shame the actual premise tends to let it down.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Here's another fun example at how this story hates the female gender.

PULASKI: It's a male human, or in this case half-human half-Betazoid.
RIKER: Exactly the same as Deanna.
PULASKI: In every way. In fact, there is nothing to indicate that there are any genetic patterns other than hers.
That's right. Exactly like Deanna in every way.... except for the fact that it's male. WHY? Does this energy entity that lacks organic components carry a Y chromosome?
I agree that it's stupid. I wonder if it was an oversight somewhere along the way, during the rewriting process? The 1970's "Phase II" version of the script has Ilia giving birth to a female child.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
I do like this one line from Picard in regards to Wesley potentially leaving the ship.

PICARD: Mixed feelings for all of us.
I'd like to think that line implies that there are crew members who don't look at Wesley as the sweet perfect writer's pet that he is and are more than happy to see him leave the ship for good.
That turbolift exchange makes me every time. There's just something about Patrick Stewart's dry reading of that line... and the way he refuses to even make eye contact with Wesley as he says it.
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Old January 29 2013, 11:33 PM   #30
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x01 The Child

Captrek wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Well Crusher... I find it funny she just left Wesley there. Not that I blame her even if that is dead-beat parenting.
Are you serious?

She gets a promoted to head of Starfleet Medical and consequently transfers from the ship to Starfleet HQ in San Francisco. The plan is that he will join her in a few weeks, but he decides he wants to stay on the ship and she gives him permission to do so. It's not deadbeat parenting at all—it's more like letting him go to college out of state.

Ironically, a year later she will accept a demotion back to her previous position and transfer back to the Enterprise, presumably out of a desire to be with her son, only to see him leave the ship for the Academy in San Francisco after another year.
He's like fifteen or sixteen at the time. Even just leaving your kid on a starship alone for a "few weeks" is kinda irresponsible. Last I checked Colleges aren't regularly sparing with Romulan warbirds and other random bad guys of the week either. Really the whole concept of families on starships is kinda absurd. DS9/Voyager pretty much phased this out, assuming to the fact bad things kept happening to the families. Like Sisko's wife dying for example. Jake almost bit it too. Even during Best of Both Worlds no one even mentioned the possibility of evacuating the families and civilians before they confronted them.
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