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Old January 28 2013, 08:06 PM   #16
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Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
[Picard] "Every member of the Federation entered as a unified world ..."
Unified world doesn't automatically mean a one world government. It could refer to a species seeing themselves as a people, a social realization.
Uh-huh. Suuuuure. And states can enter the U.S., provinces can join Canada, and lander can join the Federal Republic of Germany, as disunified polities with no clearly-defined constitutions, governments, or territories.

* * *

I would tend to presume that the general requirements for Federation Membership for a polity would include, amongst others:
  • Possession of at least one entire planet as a sovereign territory
  • Possession of a genuinely democratic government
  • An abolition of any sort of slavery or involuntary servitude
  • An abolition of caste or class systems
  • A certain range of economic equality
  • An abolition of institutional racism, sexism, classism, nationalism, ableism, etc.
  • An abolition of poverty
  • A guarantee of civil rights and liberties for all persons
  • Prohibitions on "sentients" rights abuses
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Old January 29 2013, 11:15 AM   #17
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Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Um, that was exactly what Picard said, so why are you calling it false?
Picard didn't say "Having a unified planetary government."

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I doubt the Federation would have allowed the Cardassian Union to join the Federation, when they were still under a military dictatorship.
It would depend on how much the Federation need to have the Cardassians as a part of the Federation, what as a total package the Cardassians brought to the mix.

If military dictatorships were already common amongst the Federation's Membership, adding the Cardassians would not be an exception.

Last edited by Merry Christmas; January 29 2013 at 11:26 AM.
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Old January 29 2013, 11:46 AM   #18
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Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Um, that was exactly what Picard said, so why are you calling it false?
Picard didn't say "Having a unified planetary government."
Then the planet wouldn't be unified. Seems pretty simple.
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Old January 29 2013, 12:24 PM   #19
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Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?

People can be unified even if they live in multiple countries. It depends I guess on how you define yourself. The Latin culture exist in dozens of countries, and there are subtle variations from place to place, but it is essentially one culture. We are a people.

A world can have one government, or thousands. The people of that world can be united regardless of the number of organizations providing services and protections within a particular geographic area..

As long as a world can in some fashion select a mouthpiece to speak on it behalf in the Federation's governing body, that should be good enought.

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Old January 29 2013, 01:31 PM   #20
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Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?

I think that complicates the issue and opens up a new can of worms. Say a planet is like Earth that has two hundred or so nations--one or some want to join the Federation, but the other nations do not or rather join someone else. I don't think the Federation would force themselves onto a planet that divided (as already mentioned, the situation on Kesprytt III was seen as an unusual case by Picard and was only an evaluation to see if it was possible).

To avoid such problems, the existence of a planetary government really has to be used as a yardstick for determining just how unified a world is. Otherwise, then current day Earth would be ready for Federation membership if only some nations fit the criteria while others do not and really are far from doing so.
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Old January 29 2013, 03:01 PM   #21
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Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?

Ardana is an example for a Federation member with a rather tyrannical government:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Ardana

Then again, depiction of the Federation in TOS significantly differed from the one in TNG/DS9/VOY. In TOS, the Federation was the United Nations... in space (with Earth acting as the United States in space)! From TNG onwards, the Federation as a whole was depicted as the United States... in space!

It's easily explainable in-universe though, because it isn't too far-fetched too asume that the nature and structure of the Federation had evolved over the centuries. (Again comparable to the evolution of the United States: In the very beginning, the U.S. was a merely a loose confederation of states. Sometime later, it was an actual nation-state, but one that allowed slavery in it constituent states. Nowadays, it has a black president.)

That being said, it's hard to imagine that the 24th century Federation had allowed Ardana to become a member planet.
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Old January 29 2013, 05:13 PM   #22
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Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?

All I know is we are far from the point when such a Federation would allow us in.
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Old January 29 2013, 05:37 PM   #23
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Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?

In Insurrection Picard mentioned they basically watered down the requirements during the Dominion War being the Federation needed all the help they could get. Those slug people at the beginning were mentioned to be pre-warp if I recall correctly.
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Old January 29 2013, 07:31 PM   #24
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Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Say a planet is like Earth that has two hundred or so nations--one or some want to join the Federation, but the other nations do not or rather join someone else.
Raises the question, who (or what) joins the Federation? If it's the people who populate the planet, then whether to join would be a matter of a referendum of the population, regardless of the number of nations.

If it's the current political state, what would happen if the population replaced the government (or government type) that existed at the time of joining?

If say Vulcan entered the Federation as a autocratic state, changes at some point into a democracy, then morphs back to a auotocracy over time, what happens? If it was the Vulcan people who joined the Federation, then they as a group remain a part of the Federation. Regardless of whatever government type they have at any one point in time. If the Vulcan political state is what joins the Federation, when that state disappears (but the people/planet remain) the membership would also disappear, and the new state has to apply for membership from scratch?

the existence of a planetary government really has to be used as a yardstick for determining just how unified a world is
So if we (hypothedically) give modern day Earth a single planetary government, but change nothing else, how would this make us any different than a Earth with multiple hundreds of governments?

A single government is hardly a cure all, easily could make things worst.

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Old January 29 2013, 09:49 PM   #25
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Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Say a planet is like Earth that has two hundred or so nations--one or some want to join the Federation, but the other nations do not or rather join someone else.
Raises the question, who (or what) joins the Federation? If it's the people who populate the planet, then whether to join would be a matter of a referendum of the population, regardless of the number of nations.

If it's the current political state, what would happen if the population replaced the government (or government type) that existed at the time of joining?

If say Vulcan entered the Federation as a autocratic state, changes at some point into a democracy, then morphs back to a auotocracy over time, what happens? If it was the Vulcan people who joined the Federation, then they as a group remain a part of the Federation. Regardless of whatever government type they have at any one point in time. If the Vulcan political state is what joins the Federation, when that state disappears (but the people/planet remain) the membership would also disappear, and the new state has to apply for membership from scratch?
See what happens when you don't have a unified planet?
the existence of a planetary government really has to be used as a yardstick for determining just how unified a world is
So if we (hypothedically) give modern day Earth a single planetary government, but change nothing else, how would this make us any different than a Earth with multiple hundreds of governments?

A single government is hardly a cure all, easily could make things worst.
Which is why potential members are evaluated, but a single planetary government would make things a lot more easier, and does say a lot about that world.
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Old January 29 2013, 11:34 PM   #26
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Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Sisko said (iirc) that there can't be caste based discrimination. Not that there couldn't be castes
Perhaps there's something I'm not getting, but doesn't discrimination come with the very existence of castes?

Obviously there was discrimination in Bajor's old caste system, as we personally saw a man being EXECUTED for not following his caste!
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Old January 30 2013, 01:55 AM   #27
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Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?

R. Star wrote: View Post
In Insurrection Picard mentioned they basically watered down the requirements during the Dominion War being the Federation needed all the help they could get. Those slug people at the beginning were mentioned to be pre-warp if I recall correctly.
No, INS did not establish this. The Evora -- the foreign dignitaries seen at the beginning of the film -- were being welcomed at a reception to commemorate their becoming protectorates of the Federation. A protectorate is a sovereign, independent state that allows itself to become the protected ally of a stronger foreign state; both states remain sovereign and independent, and can unilaterally terminate the relationship at any point. The Evora were not becoming Federation Members.

Further, Troi referred to them as having developed warp drive the prior year, not as being pre-warp.
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Old January 30 2013, 11:16 AM   #28
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Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?

Um, that was exactly what Picard said, so why are you calling it false?
Hmm. What I'm saying is true to what Picard is saying. What you are saying is false.

Namely, your claim that

"Having a unified planetary government" aren't my words, those are the actual words actually spoken onscreen by Picard in "Attached."
is untrue. The actual words are yours, not Picard's. See above for the actual words of Picard, the ones that do not contain the words "planetary" or "government" at all.

Perhaps there's something I'm not getting, but doesn't discrimination come with the very existence of castes?
Depends on the definition of discrimination, I guess. Today, it's atypical to yell "discrimination" if only people of a select gender are allowed to become pregnant or only those with a certain nationality are allowed to vote in certain elections. The "lot in life" inherent in being born to a caste might not warrant moral outrage amounting to discrimination charges, not in all cases.

That Bajor's caste system was discriminatory by UFP standards was obvious. Which is a pity, because it obscures whether the UFP would tolerate less discriminatory caste systems or not.

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Old January 30 2013, 07:14 PM   #29
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Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
If say Vulcan entered the Federation as a autocratic state, changes at some point into a democracy, then morphs back to a autocracy over time, what happens?
See what happens when you don't have a unified planet?
That hypothedical was of a planet with a mono-government.

If a planet's population radically changes it's government type, does the planetary population remain a federation member?

Timo wrote: View Post
That Bajor's caste system was discriminatory by UFP standards was obvious. Which is a pity, because it obscures whether the UFP would tolerate less discriminatory caste systems or not.
I think you can go back to Sisko's choice of words. He didn't say merely having a caste based system would in of itself prevent Bajor from becoming a federation member, he specifically said caste based discrimination.

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Old January 30 2013, 10:02 PM   #30
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Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?

Timo wrote: View Post
Um, that was exactly what Picard said, so why are you calling it false?
Hmm. What I'm saying is true to what Picard is saying. What you are saying is false.

Namely, your claim that

"Having a unified planetary government" aren't my words, those are the actual words actually spoken onscreen by Picard in "Attached."
is untrue. The actual words are yours, not Picard's. See above for the actual words of Picard, the ones that do not contain the words "planetary" or "government" at all.

Doesn't change a thing, really.

The situation in question was still about a world applying for Federation membership that wasn't united under a single government. You can quibble that a "unified world" can mean anything, but my point still stands.
T'Girl wrote: View Post
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T'Girl wrote: View Post
If say Vulcan entered the Federation as a autocratic state, changes at some point into a democracy, then morphs back to a autocracy over time, what happens?
See what happens when you don't have a unified planet?
That hypothedical was of a planet with a mono-government.
Sorry, my response was actually in regards to what came before that.
If a planet's population radically changes it's government type, does the planetary population remain a federation member?
If it no longer abides by the Federation charter, I don't think it would, but if it still does, then the type of government--rule by one or rule by committee--shouldn't matter at all. I think the only exception would be a government in which the guaranteed rights under the Federation Constitution (such as the Seventh Guarantee, for example) were being denied to its people.
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