RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,116
Posts: 5,400,850
Members: 24,740
Currently online: 487
Newest member: Ohwowmelody

TrekToday headlines

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Retro Watches
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

New DS9 eBook To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25

Trek Ice Cube Maker and Shot Glasses
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 24 2013, 03:12 PM   #151
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Australis wrote: View Post
I could stand to hear some more about this. I was always under the impression it was Logan's script that was the problem. I must rummage around for one
Nah, adding more TNG moments wouldn't change anything about the stupid rest of the film.
The entire film felt exactly like a funeral. The cast all seemed tired out, and the story was a real letdown at the end.

The story as is needed to end on a more upbeat note. Even TWOK ended up hopeful and upbeat.
That's what I always thought about the film as well. And it's even intentional. The DVD commentary talks about how Baird wanted Jerry Goldsmith to make the score sad and depressing. The cast was tired, lighting is mostly dark, the story is depressing, Patrick Stewart obviously has a cold in most scenes...

As a result, people walked out of the film feeling (subconsciously) depressed. Most people didn't have a good time watching the film. And I don't think that's the proper way to make the money at the box office.


As a contrast, look at The Undiscovered Country. That's how how make a film about a retiring crew going out with a triumphant bang.


Nemesis would have needed a whole different structure and a different attitude. One major thing would have been, in my opinion, to put the wedding and Riker's promotion to Captain at the end of the film. A final shot of the Enterprise and the Titan leaving orbit in two different directions, with upbeat music. Something like that. Instead, we get a shot of a destroyed Enterprise in a drydock.
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24 2013, 04:55 PM   #152
cardinal biggles
THE ZEPPO
 
cardinal biggles's Avatar
 
Location: potrzebie
Send a message via ICQ to cardinal biggles Send a message via AIM to cardinal biggles Send a message via Yahoo to cardinal biggles
Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

Lance wrote: View Post
...and indeed, to get back to being on topic, John Logan's actual script is terrific, laced with loads of genuine TNG moments.
No, it's not terrific, it's the usual John Logan mess, full of plot holes papered over with fan service. This time he didn't have a good director like Scorcese or Sam Mendes to pull it together, and it shows.

It certainly isn't his fault that director Stuart Baird completely eviscerated the movie in the editing room, literally ripping the heart out of the film in favor of ridiculous, popcorn-friendly set pieces.
Funny, because if you read the script, all the "ridiculous, popcorn-friendly set pieces" are there, too: the Argo dune buggy chase, Data and Picard stealing the fighter, the space battle, the fight in the crawlspace between Riker and the Reman Viceroy. You think Baird pulled those out of his ass as he was filming? It's all there on paper, and it's only slightly less bad than it turned out.
cardinal biggles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24 2013, 05:14 PM   #153
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Nah, adding more TNG moments wouldn't change anything about the stupid rest of the film.
The entire film felt exactly like a funeral. The cast all seemed tired out, and the story was a real letdown at the end.

The story as is needed to end on a more upbeat note. Even TWOK ended up hopeful and upbeat.
That's what I always thought about the film as well. And it's even intentional. The DVD commentary talks about how Baird wanted Jerry Goldsmith to make the score sad and depressing. The cast was tired, lighting is mostly dark, the story is depressing, Patrick Stewart obviously has a cold in most scenes...

As a result, people walked out of the film feeling (subconsciously) depressed. Most people didn't have a good time watching the film. And I don't think that's the proper way to make the money at the box office.


As a contrast, look at The Undiscovered Country. That's how how make a film about a retiring crew going out with a triumphant bang.


Nemesis would have needed a whole different structure and a different attitude. One major thing would have been, in my opinion, to put the wedding and Riker's promotion to Captain at the end of the film. A final shot of the Enterprise and the Titan leaving orbit in two different directions, with upbeat music. Something like that. Instead, we get a shot of a destroyed Enterprise in a drydock.

that's a good idea, the switching around the beginning and the end for the crew, that would have ended the movie on a more upbeat note.
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24 2013, 06:11 PM   #154
trevanian
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

Zeppster wrote: View Post
Honestly Data's death could have worked if it was done a bit better. The reason Spock's death scene worked so good is because we had a moment just before his death where not only Kirk feels his death but everyone does. It's the quintessential scene in all of Trek history. Instead in Nemesis he basically transports Picard away with no real emotion and no real goodbye. This is a character that they had built for 15 years at the time. And was the most popular and probably well built character of TNG. And his goodbye is just a look.

Again the reason it doesn't work is because they missed something in a draft.
You needed some resonance with what had gone before. In TWOK you have the scene in Spock's quarters setting up their goodbye dialog. Up front you've got Spock 'dying' in the simulator, in mid-film you've got Spock after the sneak attack doing a strange inward look, and together that lets you know when the genesis effect starts and Spock turns at his station, that his time is NOW. Somebody said everything in movies is contrived, but the thing is, this is EFFECTIVELY contrived.

NEMESIS actually has a bit at the beginning that could have anchored Picard/Data's goodbye. All you need to do is have Data echo what Picard said to him early on. Instead of "Data, shut up," you see Picard react to having the transporter thing slapped on him and start to open his mouth and Data says, "Captain, shut up" ... and Picard understands what is happening ... and you don't need anymore than that, but you've put just a moment of reflective poignancy in there to point up what is going down, instead of just pedantically shooting the scene and just expecting the audience to be moved because they're supposed to be moved (to be fair, GEN screws Kirk's demise up too, not so much in setup and payoff, but just plain failure to execute in any way that engages in the slightest.)
trevanian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24 2013, 07:06 PM   #155
Lance
Fleet Captain
 
Lance's Avatar
 
Location: The Enterprise's Restroom
Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

There was also a scene at the end of the script where Worf and Geordi are cleaning out Data's quarters, and Geordi discovers that Data didn't have his emotions chip in (the implication apparently being that, in being able to make his self-sacrifice, Data had transcended his core programming). This scene was filmed, but like many of the character building moments it was removed in the final edit.

IMO this is the kind of thing they neeeded to work on to make Data's death feel more significant. This, and remove that final scene where Picard "discovers" that B4 is beginning to recover Data's memories. Draw and line under Data's death (instead of hinting that he isn't dead after all), and it becomes a powerful and defining moment, instead of simply being a "huh, I guess he'll be back in the next movie" one.
Lance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25 2013, 08:08 AM   #156
MikeS
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Liverpool, UK
Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

Lance wrote: View Post
There was also a scene at the end of the script where Worf and Geordi are cleaning out Data's quarters, and Geordi discovers that Data didn't have his emotions chip in (the implication apparently being that, in being able to make his self-sacrifice, Data had transcended his core programming). This scene was filmed, but like many of the character building moments it was removed in the final edit.
I thought his emotion chip had "fused" and could not be removed? (Generations)
__________________
One day soon, man is going to be able to harness incredible energies, energies that could ultimately hurl us to other worlds in... some sort of spaceship.
MikeS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25 2013, 08:23 AM   #157
AllStarEntprise
Fleet Captain
 
AllStarEntprise's Avatar
 
Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

MikeS wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
There was also a scene at the end of the script where Worf and Geordi are cleaning out Data's quarters, and Geordi discovers that Data didn't have his emotions chip in (the implication apparently being that, in being able to make his self-sacrifice, Data had transcended his core programming). This scene was filmed, but like many of the character building moments it was removed in the final edit.
I thought his emotion chip had "fused" and could not be removed? (Generations)
See Star Trek INS for a line from Geordi to Picard, that Data didn't take it with him when he went on the recon mission with Star Fleet on the Bak'u. Sometime after FC it must have become removable again.
AllStarEntprise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25 2013, 04:38 PM   #158
GalaxyX
Rear Admiral
 
GalaxyX's Avatar
 
Location: Canada
Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

MikeS wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
There was also a scene at the end of the script where Worf and Geordi are cleaning out Data's quarters, and Geordi discovers that Data didn't have his emotions chip in (the implication apparently being that, in being able to make his self-sacrifice, Data had transcended his core programming). This scene was filmed, but like many of the character building moments it was removed in the final edit.
I thought his emotion chip had "fused" and could not be removed? (Generations)
I think this was waved away with a throwaway line in FC about him being able to "switch it off". They were about to fight the Borg and Data switches off the chip, and Picard says something like "Data, sometimes I envy you"
__________________
Top Gear America: Jay Leno, Adam Carolla, Tim Allen. DONE!
GalaxyX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25 2013, 05:05 PM   #159
Romulan_spy
Commodore
 
Location: Terre Haute, IN. USA
Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

For me, one of the biggest problems with Nemesis is that the movie does not flow right. It does not feel like a coherent story. It feels more like a series of action scenes loosely tied together. You can almost sense in the editing as if the director was going "can we get on with the talky scene because I want to do the next cool action scene now". Case in point, Baird stripped several key character moments from the movie because he claimed it ruined the pace of the movie so that he could get to the action scenes faster.
Romulan_spy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 25 2013, 05:15 PM   #160
Jeyl
Commodore
 
Jeyl's Avatar
 
Location: Asheville, NC
Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

Lance wrote: View Post
John Logan's actual script is terrific, laced with loads of genuine TNG moments.
Like Picard's artificial heart?
Jeyl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25 2013, 05:44 PM   #161
trevanian
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
John Logan's actual script is terrific, laced with loads of genuine TNG moments.
Like Picard's artificial heart?
The script is pure Logan, has just LOADS of artificial heart.
trevanian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25 2013, 05:49 PM   #162
GalaxyX
Rear Admiral
 
GalaxyX's Avatar
 
Location: Canada
Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

trevanian wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
John Logan's actual script is terrific, laced with loads of genuine TNG moments.
Like Picard's artificial heart?
The script is pure Logan, has just LOADS of artificial heart.
LMAO!!!
__________________
Top Gear America: Jay Leno, Adam Carolla, Tim Allen. DONE!
GalaxyX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 27 2013, 11:22 PM   #163
Anji
Rear Admiral
 
Anji's Avatar
 
Location: Assisting in the birth of baby Horta on Janus VI
View Anji's Twitter Profile
Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

Romulan_spy wrote: View Post
For me, one of the biggest problems with Nemesis is that the movie does not flow right. It does not feel like a coherent story. It feels more like a series of action scenes loosely tied together. You can almost sense in the editing as if the director was going "can we get on with the talky scene because I want to do the next cool action scene now". Case in point, Baird stripped several key character moments from the movie because he claimed it ruined the pace of the movie so that he could get to the action scenes faster.
Completely agree. I'd like to add that it also seemed that the cast was not taking the movie seriously. I mean, I think they knew this was going to be a no-brainer and they were going to get a paycheck no matter what.
__________________
"You may be wrong, but you may be right." - Billy Joel
Anji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 28 2013, 01:32 AM   #164
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

Anji wrote: View Post
Romulan_spy wrote: View Post
For me, one of the biggest problems with Nemesis is that the movie does not flow right. It does not feel like a coherent story. It feels more like a series of action scenes loosely tied together. You can almost sense in the editing as if the director was going "can we get on with the talky scene because I want to do the next cool action scene now". Case in point, Baird stripped several key character moments from the movie because he claimed it ruined the pace of the movie so that he could get to the action scenes faster.
Completely agree. I'd like to add that it also seemed that the cast was not taking the movie seriously. I mean, I think they knew this was going to be a no-brainer and they were going to get a paycheck no matter what.

I'm pretty sure they knew they were going to get paychecks for the other three movies, too.
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 29 2013, 03:02 AM   #165
GalaxyX
Rear Admiral
 
GalaxyX's Avatar
 
Location: Canada
Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

sonak wrote: View Post
Anji wrote: View Post
Romulan_spy wrote: View Post
For me, one of the biggest problems with Nemesis is that the movie does not flow right. It does not feel like a coherent story. It feels more like a series of action scenes loosely tied together. You can almost sense in the editing as if the director was going "can we get on with the talky scene because I want to do the next cool action scene now". Case in point, Baird stripped several key character moments from the movie because he claimed it ruined the pace of the movie so that he could get to the action scenes faster.
Completely agree. I'd like to add that it also seemed that the cast was not taking the movie seriously. I mean, I think they knew this was going to be a no-brainer and they were going to get a paycheck no matter what.

I'm pretty sure they knew they were going to get paychecks for the other three movies, too.
Personally I get the feeling that they hated the script, but were basically forced to do it. Either that or no pay. I don't blame them.
__________________
Top Gear America: Jay Leno, Adam Carolla, Tim Allen. DONE!
GalaxyX is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:42 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.