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Old January 27 2013, 10:52 PM   #16
Mach5
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Re: Billingsley: Enterprise Gray Areas

Captain Atkin wrote: View Post
I am not a religous person myself , but to think that religion will be gone by the time of "Enterprise" is not very realistic, in my opinion. The population on this world will continue to grow, and although some people will turn their back on religion (as trends suggest), it is impossible to believe that everyone will in the span of 200 years.
No one said anything about religion being gone. Gaith was talking about cultural influences of religious groups and organizations such as the Catholic Church.

These trends are already here, now add to that the whole first contact thingy... Imagine what would happen if Vulcans (an advanced, non-deist society) came and offered their guidance. And in Trek canon, that guidance was welcomed. OK, not in MU, but that's different.
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Old January 27 2013, 11:02 PM   #17
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Re: Billingsley: Enterprise Gray Areas

Mach5 wrote: View Post
Captain Atkin wrote: View Post
I am not a religous person myself , but to think that religion will be gone by the time of "Enterprise" is not very realistic, in my opinion. The population on this world will continue to grow, and although some people will turn their back on religion (as trends suggest), it is impossible to believe that everyone will in the span of 200 years.
No one said anything about religion being gone. Gaith was talking about cultural influences of religious groups and organizations such as the Catholic Church.

These trends are already here, now add to that the whole first contact thingy... Imagine what would happen if Vulcans (an advanced, non-deist society) came and offered their guidance. And in Trek canon, that guidance was welcomed. OK, not in MU, but that's different.
I think groups like the Catholic Church will still be around in 200 years. Although the Catholic Church has been historically slow to change, it has made changes over time. I'm sure it will continue to adapt over time, in order to survive.
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Old January 27 2013, 11:47 PM   #18
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Re: Billingsley: Enterprise Gray Areas

Mach5 wrote: View Post
Captain Atkin wrote: View Post
I am not a religous person myself , but to think that religion will be gone by the time of "Enterprise" is not very realistic, in my opinion. The population on this world will continue to grow, and although some people will turn their back on religion (as trends suggest), it is impossible to believe that everyone will in the span of 200 years.
No one said anything about religion being gone. Gaith was talking about cultural influences of religious groups and organizations such as the Catholic Church.

These trends are already here, now add to that the whole first contact thingy... Imagine what would happen if Vulcans (an advanced, non-deist society) came and offered their guidance. And in Trek canon, that guidance was welcomed. OK, not in MU, but that's different.
I'm wondering if any Vulcans could be converted to an earth religion. People would try.
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Old January 28 2013, 12:55 AM   #19
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Re: Billingsley: Enterprise Gray Areas

teacake wrote: View Post
I'm wondering if any Vulcans could be converted to an earth religion. People would try.
I'm sure Vulcans had to nerve pinch Hare Krishnas at spaceports, and the door-to-door Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Old January 28 2013, 01:14 AM   #20
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Re: Billingsley: Enterprise Gray Areas

Vulcans could never be converted to Earth religions. They have no logic to them.
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Old January 28 2013, 01:29 AM   #21
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Re: Billingsley: Enterprise Gray Areas

Anji wrote: View Post
Vulcans could never be converted to Earth religions. They have no logic to them.

really? Vulcan Reformation ideas sound a lot like Buddhism to me.
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Old January 28 2013, 02:07 AM   #22
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Re: Billingsley: Enterprise Gray Areas

I don't even think the decision was the worst part about the episode.

There are two far bigger problems.

1) I always imagined the PD as something they arrived at through mistakes. Like, maybe they found an empire savagely crushing another nation, and armed that other nation to protect them. Then when that nation won the war, they were even harsher and more sadistic than the empire. I don't see them arriving at the PD without making a mistake like that first, so I was hugely disappointed when they just pulled it out of thin air.

2) That's not even the main case the PD was meant to apply to. It was meant to apply to getting involved in wars, advancing other worlds' technology. The Pen Pals/Homeward case is a fringe case, and they made the PD all about that case.
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Old January 28 2013, 02:31 AM   #23
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Re: Billingsley: Enterprise Gray Areas

sonak wrote: View Post
Anji wrote: View Post
Vulcans could never be converted to Earth religions. They have no logic to them.

really? Vulcan Reformation ideas sound a lot like Buddhism to me.
Sybok was quite ready to run off after God.
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Old January 28 2013, 03:16 AM   #24
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Billingsley: Enterprise Gray Areas

I don't see religion going away any time soon, but I think religious people are going to become progressively more tolerant and pluralistic.
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Old January 28 2013, 03:46 PM   #25
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Re: Billingsley: Enterprise Gray Areas

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I don't see religion going away any time soon, but I think religious people are going to become progressively more tolerant and pluralistic.
2152 isn't exactly what you would cal "soon". A lot can change in 139 years. Remember, just 150 years ago, North America still used slave labor.
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Old January 28 2013, 04:10 PM   #26
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Re: Billingsley: Enterprise Gray Areas

Mach5 wrote: View Post
Gaith wrote: View Post
Would have been an excellent opportunity to see how much cultural influence the Catholic Church and other religious groups might still have by that time
Phlox said something about celebrating mass at the Vatican, but judging from this and this, zero to none.
I tend to agree, and I'm not saying the Vatican should be portrayed as still having a large influence in Archer's time, but I do think there could be room for some sort of clerical voice in a hypothetical episode dealing with discussion of the Valakian situation on Earth, even if it were a minor voice.

One could posit a widespread religious revival in the wake of WWIII, but one would also think that the existence of sentient aliens would profoundly impact Earth religions' influence. Too bad the show wasn't much interested in big ideas...



JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
1) I always imagined the PD as something they arrived at through mistakes. Like, maybe they found an empire savagely crushing another nation, and armed that other nation to protect them. Then when that nation won the war, they were even harsher and more sadistic than the empire. I don't see them arriving at the PD without making a mistake like that first, so I was hugely disappointed when they just pulled it out of thin air.
Interesting idea, but there's enough comparable situations in our own history to make the dangers of such actions perfectly clear. I would've been fine with the PD being crafted through speculative discussion if the writing were good enough.
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Old January 28 2013, 04:50 PM   #27
sonak
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Re: Billingsley: Enterprise Gray Areas

teacake wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Anji wrote: View Post
Vulcans could never be converted to Earth religions. They have no logic to them.

really? Vulcan Reformation ideas sound a lot like Buddhism to me.
Sybok was quite ready to run off after God.

true, but he was kind of a maverick Vulcan, plus I think that was one of the criticisms of the plot-that all of these alien cultures would have religions based around a personal God and an "Eden-like" creation story.
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Old January 28 2013, 04:56 PM   #28
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Re: Billingsley: Enterprise Gray Areas

Gaith wrote: View Post
I tend to agree, and I'm not saying the Vatican should be portrayed as still having a large influence in Archer's time, but I do think there could be room for some sort of clerical voice in a hypothetical episode dealing with discussion of the Valakian situation on Earth, even if it were a minor voice.
My take - organizations such as the Roman Chatolic Church are still there in the early days of UFP, but society is strictly secular, and so are the moral, ethical and family values. In other words, Church is a place of worship, and nothing more.

This subject is a bit touchy for me ATM, because the Catholic Church wages an all-out war on secularism in my country right now. Some clerics have even indirectly called for violent action against "the infidels", I shit you not.

sonak wrote:
true, but he was kind of a maverick Vulcan
Sybok was a psychopath, and that abomination of a movie isn't canon. :P
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Old January 29 2013, 12:13 AM   #29
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Billingsley: Enterprise Gray Areas

Mach5 wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I don't see religion going away any time soon, but I think religious people are going to become progressively more tolerant and pluralistic.
2152 isn't exactly what you would cal "soon". A lot can change in 139 years. Remember, just 150 years ago, North America still used slave labor.
Yeah, that's why I think 139 years is enough that we'll probably have much less religious intolerance and persecution. I just don't see any atheist revolution coming about in that time.
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Old January 29 2013, 02:10 AM   #30
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Re: Billingsley: Enterprise Gray Areas

^ Even with Vulcans around to point out how pretty much all primitive societies worship some kind of a Picard in their infancy?
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