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Old January 25 2013, 01:16 AM   #31
JarodRussell
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Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

Gary7 wrote: View Post
Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group". Animals do not commit genocide. PERIOD. A lion might kill another male to take over its pride, but it won't partner up with other lions to deliberately wipe out another group.

Skirmishes between animals are very localized and focused on "survival of the moment." There is no long term deliberation possible, which is what is required when enacting genocide.
When a lion takes over a pride, he kills all the children of his predecessor, on purpose. That maximizes his own reproductive success.

Another example that came to my mind is that race of Japanese Hornets that systematically massacre beehives. They attack and kill every. single. one. of them. And then they steal the larvae.
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Old January 25 2013, 10:43 AM   #32
RJDiogenes
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Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

Gary7 wrote: View Post
Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group". Animals do not commit genocide. PERIOD. A lion might kill another male to take over its pride, but it won't partner up with other lions to deliberately wipe out another group.

Skirmishes between animals are very localized and focused on "survival of the moment." There is no long term deliberation possible, which is what is required when enacting genocide.
Animals are motivated to kill their competitors. Any species that didn't become extinct as a direct result of a natural catastrophe was out-competed. That's genocide. The only difference is that when Humans act on that impulse, they can put their intellectual capacity and technology behind it. Again, it's acting on instinct rather than rationalism.
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Old January 26 2013, 12:22 AM   #33
Gary7
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Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Animals are motivated to kill their competitors. Any species that didn't become extinct as a direct result of a natural catastrophe was out-competed. That's genocide. The only difference is that when Humans act on that impulse, they can put their intellectual capacity and technology behind it. Again, it's acting on instinct rather than rationalism.
I'm not disputing that, but "competitors" are those creatures in their immediate vicinity, as JarodRussell pointed out when a lion takes over a pride it will kill the cubs of their defeated father. It doesn't then start seeking out all lion cubs to kill, nor conspire with other lions to wipe out other creatures because of some physical or cultural distinctiveness.

Yes, you could say genocide a form of "fear threat" response, to perceive a certain kind of people as a competitor or infringement on resources and wipe them out because of it, but this is a very deliberate and calculating kind of thing, something animals do not do. We have never observed elephants or dolphins doing it either, the more intelligent of the animal kingdom.
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Old January 26 2013, 05:45 AM   #34
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Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

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. . . I am no marine biologist so I might be wrong, but I was under the impression that dolphins are part of the whale family, just a different branch than the "classical" whales like e.g. humpbacks?
They're all cetaceans, which comprise an order, not a family. Dolphins and porpoises are basically just small whales.
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Old January 26 2013, 10:51 AM   #35
RJDiogenes
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Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

Gary7 wrote: View Post
RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Animals are motivated to kill their competitors. Any species that didn't become extinct as a direct result of a natural catastrophe was out-competed. That's genocide. The only difference is that when Humans act on that impulse, they can put their intellectual capacity and technology behind it. Again, it's acting on instinct rather than rationalism.
I'm not disputing that, but "competitors" are those creatures in their immediate vicinity, as JarodRussell pointed out when a lion takes over a pride it will kill the cubs of their defeated father. It doesn't then start seeking out all lion cubs to kill, nor conspire with other lions to wipe out other creatures because of some physical or cultural distinctiveness.

Yes, you could say genocide a form of "fear threat" response, to perceive a certain kind of people as a competitor or infringement on resources and wipe them out because of it, but this is a very deliberate and calculating kind of thing, something animals do not do. We have never observed elephants or dolphins doing it either, the more intelligent of the animal kingdom.
I'm not sure if cetaceans have ever been observed doing that, but other primates have. As I said in an earlier post, intelligence complicates the situation. An animal will only feel threatened by current and immediate circumstances-- a Human can feel threatened in the abstract.
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Old January 26 2013, 11:53 AM   #36
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Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

scotpens wrote: View Post
Rhubarbodendron wrote: View Post
. . . I am no marine biologist so I might be wrong, but I was under the impression that dolphins are part of the whale family, just a different branch than the "classical" whales like e.g. humpbacks?
They're all cetaceans, which comprise an order, not a family. Dolphins and porpoises are basically just small whales.
I see where the problem lies:

While both our languages divide the Order up into the two suborders Balean Whales (Mysticeti) and Toothed Whales (Odontoceti), we Germans follow that logic and call the whole order "Whales", while you instead use an anglicized version of the scientific name (Cetacea) : Cetaceans.
We both mean the same and only use different ways to express it. (We Germans try to avoid the use of scientific names as much as possible. It's mainly a matter of spelling and keeping words short, I suspect).

It's these tiny differences between our languages that drive people into despair (or into flame wars).
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Old January 26 2013, 01:37 PM   #37
Timelord Victorious
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Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

Rhubarbodendron wrote: View Post
scotpens wrote: View Post
Rhubarbodendron wrote: View Post
. . . I am no marine biologist so I might be wrong, but I was under the impression that dolphins are part of the whale family, just a different branch than the "classical" whales like e.g. humpbacks?
They're all cetaceans, which comprise an order, not a family. Dolphins and porpoises are basically just small whales.
I see where the problem lies:

While both our languages divide the Order up into the two suborders Balean Whales (Mysticeti) and Toothed Whales (Odontoceti), we Germans follow that logic and call the whole order "Whales", while you instead use an anglicized version of the scientific name (Cetacea) : Cetaceans.
We both mean the same and only use different ways to express it. (We Germans try to avoid the use of scientific names as much as possible. It's mainly a matter of spelling and keeping words short, I suspect).

It's these tiny differences between our languages that drive people into despair (or into flame wars).
True, I couldn't even think of a German word that describes whales and dolphins in one group other than whales or whale-like.... hm.... ocean cows?
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Old January 26 2013, 02:02 PM   #38
Alidar Jarok
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Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

Rhubarbodendron wrote: View Post
(We Germans try to avoid the use of scientific names as much as possible. It's mainly a matter of spelling and keeping words short, I suspect).
Since when did Germans care about keeping words short?
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Old January 26 2013, 02:33 PM   #39
Timelord Victorious
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Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Rhubarbodendron wrote: View Post
(We Germans try to avoid the use of scientific names as much as possible. It's mainly a matter of spelling and keeping words short, I suspect).
Since when did Germans care about keeping words short?
Actually we do.

However, our grammar works a bit different than yours, because when we combine certain words we use them as one word where you keep a space between them.

Evolutionstheorie = Evolution Theory

not much longer than yours just stronger linked together.
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Old January 26 2013, 07:04 PM   #40
Gary7
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Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

Timelord_Victorious wrote: View Post
However, our grammar works a bit different than yours, because when we combine certain words we use them as one word where you keep a space between them.

Evolutionstheorie = Evolution Theory

not much longer than yours just stronger linked together.
True, but the appearance is much more intimidating to the uninitiated. What scares me are some words that nearly span the whole width of a page. When do you breathe?
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Old January 26 2013, 09:18 PM   #41
scotpens
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Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

Rhubarbodendron wrote: View Post
While both our languages divide the Order up into the two suborders Baleen Whales (Mysticeti) and Toothed Whales (Odontoceti), we Germans follow that logic and call the whole order "Whales", while you instead use an anglicized version of the scientific name (Cetacea) : Cetaceans.
We both mean the same and only use different ways to express it. (We Germans try to avoid the use of scientific names as much as possible. It's mainly a matter of spelling and keeping words short, I suspect).
Whereas we Yanks and Brits love using anglicized versions of Latin and Greek scientific names, because we think it makes us sound smarter.
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Old January 26 2013, 09:30 PM   #42
Timelord Victorious
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Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

scotpens wrote: View Post
Rhubarbodendron wrote: View Post
While both our languages divide the Order up into the two suborders Baleen Whales (Mysticeti) and Toothed Whales (Odontoceti), we Germans follow that logic and call the whole order "Whales", while you instead use an anglicized version of the scientific name (Cetacea) : Cetaceans.
We both mean the same and only use different ways to express it. (We Germans try to avoid the use of scientific names as much as possible. It's mainly a matter of spelling and keeping words short, I suspect).
Whereas we Yanks and Brits love using anglicized versions of Latin and Greek scientific names, because we think it makes us sound smarter.
And of course we Germans in recent years like to use as many english words and anglicisms as possible to sound trendy and progressive.
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Old January 27 2013, 04:46 AM   #43
Unicron
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Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

Good thing it was a wild dolphin, and not an evangelistic dolphin.

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Old January 27 2013, 11:00 AM   #44
RJDiogenes
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Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

^^

Rhubarbodendron wrote: View Post
It's these tiny differences between our languages that drive people into despair (or into flame wars).
Uh oh. I hope that doesn't happen between us and the dolphins.
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Old January 27 2013, 12:33 PM   #45
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Re: wild dolphin seeks out human help

Unicron wrote: View Post
Good thing it was a wild dolphin, and not an evangelistic dolphin.
In all seriousness, if some of the wild suggestions some of us threw in this thread are true, dolphins are very likely to worship us, and that was an evangelistic girl.

If by any chance dolphins had language complex enough to convey it, they would not hesitate to signal the others of the existence of outlandish godlike creatures from the world above that are a source of both danger and help. Which would be exactly what this dolphin might have been seeking.
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