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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old January 24 2013, 01:39 AM   #76
Merlanthe
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Re: Jadzia

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Such a forward-thinking, yet deep-seated, taboo doesn't make much sense though without an evolutionary component. Similar to the incest taboo having a biological component*. Would have been interesting to see this more explored, but if I recall...they already did a 'Dark secret of the Trill' episode.
It makes more sense when you consider that the symbionts past memories and desire may be unfairly influencing the thoughts and feeling of the current host.

Do you tihnk that having your memories and feelings influenced by anothers to the extent that you want to risk exile and death for the sake of reviving a romance with someone that you never met before and might not have been attracted to if it werent for your ability to recall someone elses memories count as a form of mind control/mind rape? I dont want to use that second term it seems so strong but it would certainly justify the harsh punishment.

Would you want to allow a symbiont with such disregard for its host and the traditions of Trill socioty to be allowed to pass on to another host and perhaps abuse that host in a similar way? By unfairly influencing the current host to reassociate with a past lover the symbiont not only fails to 'move on' it prevents the host from living a life of their own choosing and instead forces them to abide by the choices of the symbiont.

Unfortunately the writers dont really explore that issue.
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Old January 24 2013, 04:44 AM   #77
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Re: Jadzia

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post

JustKate wrote: View Post
But then again, I've personally never thought much of flirting, anyway. I prefer being straight-forward about feelings, and all that teasing and "hard to get" stuff just confuses and irritates me.
As I've said, I've found this is often the origin of many people's dislike of Jadzia.
Actually, it wasn't me who said this. I see no harm in a little flirting - which is probably why I don't see any real harm in Jadzia. The writers were a bit heavy-handed with her dialogue...but come to think of it they were almost always heavy-handed with such things. Think about some of the quasi-romantic dialogue Riker and Kirk had. Subtle it was not.
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Old January 24 2013, 06:53 AM   #78
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Re: Jadzia

[/QUOTE]
...but come to think of it they were almost always heavy-handed with such things. Think about some of the quasi-romantic dialogue Riker and Kirk had. Subtle it was not.[/QUOTE]

That's a good point. We have to think of it in that context. I mean Jadzia's flirting pales in comparison to Kirk's - and he flirted with women under his command! It always seemed more equitable with Jadzia. Still gotta love Kirk though.
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Old January 24 2013, 09:10 AM   #79
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Re: Jadzia

Merlanthe wrote: View Post

The reason given for the taboo was that reassosiation prevents the symbiote form moving on, a really weak reason imho that also implies that the host is the one at fault when in reality the desire to reassociate lies purely with the symbiote.
Where did you pluck that reason from?
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Old January 24 2013, 05:09 PM   #80
Merlanthe
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Re: Jadzia

Deckerd wrote: View Post
Merlanthe wrote: View Post

The reason given for the taboo was that reassosiation prevents the symbiote form moving on, a really weak reason imho that also implies that the host is the one at fault when in reality the desire to reassociate lies purely with the symbiote.
Where did you pluck that reason from?
I got it from what Bashir says in the episode when he is explaining the taboo to Kira.

'The whole point of joining is to allow the symbiont to accumulate experiences over the span of many life times. But in order to move on from host to host, the symbiont has to let go of the past...let go of parents, children, siblings, even spouses.'

Of course now that i go back and look at that snippet of dialogue i see recall that it doesnt imply that the host is at fault i got confuddled on that point sorry.
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Old January 24 2013, 07:46 PM   #81
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Re: Jadzia

Merlanthe wrote: View Post
'The whole point of joining is to allow the symbiont to accumulate experiences over the span of many life times. But in order to move on from host to host, the symbiont has to let go of the past...let go of parents, children, siblings, even spouses.'
I thought about that conversation when Ezri Dax pretty much picked up Jadzia's life exactly where she left off, and no one batted an eye about it.
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Old January 24 2013, 08:31 PM   #82
Nightdiamond
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Re: Jadzia

Or when Dax went after the Albino with her Klingon friends because of a blood oath from a past life.

They also forgot the Odan character from TNG that wanted to get right back into a relationship with Beverly as soon as his new host arrived.

There was some goofy stuff they added about the Trills. Like that episode with the silly ritual to bring back the personalities of the past hosts-- complete with ancient sounding chanting and all. Silly.

In many ways Trills were just another example of the forehead alien, and pretty boring, but Dax made it interesting, though she could be over the top at times.
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Old January 24 2013, 09:55 PM   #83
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Re: Jadzia

Worf'sParmach wrote: View Post
I thought about that conversation when Ezri Dax pretty much picked up Jadzia's life exactly where she left off, and no one batted an eye about it.
But she didn't though. All her relationships had changed. Sisko accepted her, but he never embraced her, at least never like he did Jadzia. Kira was no longer her BFF. And Quark was passive at best about her.

Even Julian's relationship with her was different. His crush on Jadzia and romance with Ezri was really meant to be a juxtaposition.

And the host/symbiote relationship was totally different. Where Jadzia Whatever-her-name-was (Does anyone know?) was an equal partner with Dax, Ezri Tigan was a complete subservient of Dax. This dyad shift was explored a little in "Field of Fire" and hinted at in other parts, but it was really the lit writers who explored the full weight of it. I suppose had the show run longer, they would have explored it more.
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Old January 24 2013, 11:21 PM   #84
Merlanthe
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Re: Jadzia

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
But she didn't though. All her relationships had changed. Sisko accepted her, but he never embraced her, at least never like he did Jadzia. Kira was no longer her BFF. And Quark was passive at best about her.

Even Julian's relationship with her was different. His crush on Jadzia and romance with Ezri was really meant to be a juxtaposition.

And the host/symbiote relationship was totally different. Where Jadzia Whatever-her-name-was (Does anyone know?) was an equal partner with Dax, Ezri Tigan was a complete subservient of Dax. This dyad shift was explored a little in "Field of Fire" and hinted at in other parts, but it was really the lit writers who explored the full weight of it. I suppose had the show run longer, they would have explored it more.
I agree about her relationships with the other characters having changed but i completely and respectfully disagree with your assesment of the Dax/Jadzia and Dax/Ezri relationships. Imho Ezri was never subserviant to Dax and Jadzia was very far from being equal to Dax.

So much of Jadzia Dax's personality seemed to come from the symbiont and the past hosts, from her close friendship with Sisko who saw her as a younger female version of his old friend to her obssesion with Klingon culture, so much so that 'Jadzia' felt like a complete non-entity to me. Dax was the dominant perosnality in that relationship. Ezri on the otherhand may have been overwhelmed at first by the memories and feelings of past hosts that she was never meant to experience but once she adjusted she did a very good job and had a much stronger personality than what Jadzia ever had. She was never subserviant to Dax.

Jadzia acted as though the symbiont were the dominant personality whereas Ezri always held herself apart from the symbiont and by doing so remained the dominant personality.
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Old January 25 2013, 02:18 AM   #85
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Re: Jadzia

Worf'sParmach wrote: View Post
Merlanthe wrote: View Post
'The whole point of joining is to allow the symbiont to accumulate experiences over the span of many life times. But in order to move on from host to host, the symbiont has to let go of the past...let go of parents, children, siblings, even spouses.'
I thought about that conversation when Ezri Dax pretty much picked up Jadzia's life exactly where she left off, and no one batted an eye about it.
I believe the reassociation taboo is a practical consideration for Trill society, and not meant to be strictly applied to interactions with aliens.

Look at it this way - if joined Trills could just pick up their relationships with other Trills after a "re-hosting", then Trill society would develop into a clique of joined Trill hob-nobbing with each other for centuries. Unjoined Trill would be excluded from such a social circle; just think, how could an unjoined Trill related to joined Trill who are referencing events and jokes from two hundred years prior?

Outside of Trill society, though, the reassociation taboo doesn't serve a purpose, since most joined Trill aren't expected to interact with the same aliens over multiple lifetimes. Normally even a long-lived Vulcan might only manage to be friends with a Trill symbiont over two Trill lifetimes. The fact that Sisko knew three of the Dax hosts over a couple of decades is a rare fluke. He knew Curzon towards the end of the Curzon Dax era, and met Jadzia near the beginning of what was expected to be a multi-decade joining of Jadzia and Dax. The fact that Jadzia died and Ezri stepped in and did basically pick up Jadzia's social circle is probably exceptional in Trill society and, since they're all non-Trill, not really worrisome to Trill society either.
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Old January 26 2013, 12:26 AM   #86
iguana_tonante
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Re: Jadzia

JustKate wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post

JustKate wrote: View Post
[...]
[...]
Actually, it wasn't me who said this.
Too late for fixing up my post, but I apologize for the mistake.
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Old January 27 2013, 05:36 AM   #87
Rush Limborg
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Re: Jadzia

Deckerd wrote: View Post
Now all that's needed is someone to besmirch Ezri's name and Rush Limborg will be here faster than a photon torpedo.
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(Also...you might want to read a few pages back, mate. I was already here. )
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Old January 29 2013, 08:17 PM   #88
Worf'sParmach
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Re: Jadzia

Ezri moved back to the same place Jadzia lived and worked and associated with the same people Jadzia did. From what "Rejoined" establishes, that violates the symbiont having new experiences and should have never been allowed. Now, I can buy that perhaps the symbiosis commision was leniant on Ezri because of her lack of training. But it's definitely an inconsistency.

In "Rejoined" everyone was freaking out at the idea of Lenara and Jadzia even being on the station at the same time. Lenara's brother watches them like a hawk. Sisko offers for Jadzia to take a leave of absense. Fast forward to Ezri's arrival and no one bats an eye about her being around all these people from her past life on a daily basis, including her husband.
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Old January 30 2013, 09:29 AM   #89
Rush Limborg
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Re: Jadzia

I'm...pretty sure they addressed that in "Afterimage", right after the opening credits....

In "Rejoined", as I recall...the "freakout" was over the re-kindling of the relationship. And who knows? For all we know, Lenara's bother was...concerned...about his sister "breaking," due to prior incidents.
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Old January 30 2013, 09:43 AM   #90
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Re: Jadzia

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post
Now all that's needed is someone to besmirch Ezri's name and Rush Limborg will be here faster than a photon torpedo.
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(Also...you might want to read a few pages back, mate. I was already here. )
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