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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old January 11 2013, 11:31 PM   #136
Australis
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Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

The mental rape scene.
B4
Shinzon
Stewart & Spiner's input
The buggy scene

None of these work.
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Old January 12 2013, 05:16 PM   #137
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Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

Am I the only one here who thought B4 worked? I mean, it went along well with the theme and also it makes sense that Soong would have had a more primitive prototype android rather than be able to create someone as advanced as Lore on the first attempt.
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Old January 12 2013, 07:37 PM   #138
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Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

Yep, you're the only one.
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Old January 12 2013, 07:48 PM   #139
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Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

sonak wrote: View Post
Am I the only one here who thought B4 worked? I mean, it went along well with the theme and also it makes sense that Soong would have had a more primitive prototype android rather than be able to create someone as advanced as Lore on the first attempt.
As I suggested up thread, as a theme-aid Lore still works better. Plus he would have been a link to the show. But even had they used Lore, the connectivity still wouldn't have been strong or integral enough to warrant the subplot. It was just that superfluous.
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Old January 13 2013, 04:16 AM   #140
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Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

I think using him as a surrogate for our 'goodbye to Data'...as I said upthread* would have worked.

*Drop the backdoor nonsense, have Picard drop him off at the Daystrom Institute.
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Old January 13 2013, 04:18 AM   #141
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Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Am I the only one here who thought B4 worked? I mean, it went along well with the theme and also it makes sense that Soong would have had a more primitive prototype android rather than be able to create someone as advanced as Lore on the first attempt.
As I suggested up thread, as a theme-aid Lore still works better. Plus he would have been a link to the show. But even had they used Lore, the connectivity still wouldn't have been strong or integral enough to warrant the subplot. It was just that superfluous.
But Lore could've never pulled off the specific mission Shinzon used B4 for. Lore would've been constantly scrutinized while aboard the Enterprise.
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Old January 23 2013, 09:33 PM   #142
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Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
But, but the audiences would have been too stupid to grasp that Data has an evil twin built by Dr. Soong and disassembled by the crew. It was easier to grasp that he has a stupid twin built by Dr. Soong and disassembled by Romulans.

The audience would have been to stupid to get that Picard has a little bit of history with a Romulan Admiral. It was easier to get that theres a Romulan Commander he has no history with.
You ain't kidding. I'm so glad no one involved with Star Trek was involved in LOTR. By the time Return of the King came around, they would have dropped the Frodo/Sam/Gollum/One Ring storyline because viewers shouldn't be expected to know what happened in parts 1 and 2.
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Old January 23 2013, 10:31 PM   #143
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Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

FKnight wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
But, but the audiences would have been too stupid to grasp that Data has an evil twin built by Dr. Soong and disassembled by the crew. It was easier to grasp that he has a stupid twin built by Dr. Soong and disassembled by Romulans.

The audience would have been to stupid to get that Picard has a little bit of history with a Romulan Admiral. It was easier to get that theres a Romulan Commander he has no history with.
You ain't kidding. I'm so glad no one involved with Star Trek was involved in LOTR. By the time Return of the King came around, they would have dropped the Frodo/Sam/Gollum/One Ring storyline because viewers shouldn't be expected to know what happened in parts 1 and 2.
It couldn't be Lore, the crew knew Lore. He wouldn't have been able to serve the same story purpose as B4. As far as Tomalok goes, Katsulas was a great actor but a couple of roughly sixty year old actors at the center of a sci-fi action movie doesn't exactly spell success.

I really don't think they were that far away from having a great movie on their hands with Nemesis. Hardy does as serviceable job as Shinzon, just needed to think through his actual motivations a bit more.
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Old January 23 2013, 10:53 PM   #144
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Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

No, Hardy looks nothing like Picard and acts nothing like him.

All the straining the movie makes to try to suspend our disbelief that he *is* Picard fails miserably.

The photo of young Picard for instance.

I'm not sure what happened, since Hardy did an excellent Bane.
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Old January 23 2013, 10:58 PM   #145
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Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
No, Hardy looks nothing like Picard and acts nothing like him.

All the straining the movie makes to try to suspend our disbelief that he *is* Picard fails miserably.
I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure I'm a different person now than I was thirty years ago...
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Old January 23 2013, 11:41 PM   #146
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Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

BillJ wrote: View Post
I really don't think they were that far away from having a great movie on their hands with Nemesis. Hardy does as serviceable job as Shinzon, just needed to think through his actual motivations a bit more.
I tend to agree with this. The movie isn't bad bad. To my estimation it isn't on the same level as Insurrection or The Final Frontier. In a lot of important ways it's really only a shade or two away from greatness, and indeed, to get back to being on topic, John Logan's actual script is terrific, laced with loads of genuine TNG moments. It certainly isn't his fault that director Stuart Baird completely eviscerated the movie in the editing room, literally ripping the heart out of the film in favor of ridiculous, popcorn-friendly set pieces.

Whereas I think a lot of criticisms of Insurrection are fully justified (it's a very sloppy script), I actually think most of what people say about Nemesis is nothing but a beat-up. If it had been more financially successful at the box office, I think it'd be far better appreciated today than it actually is.
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Old January 24 2013, 05:38 AM   #147
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Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

Lance wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I really don't think they were that far away from having a great movie on their hands with Nemesis. Hardy does as serviceable job as Shinzon, just needed to think through his actual motivations a bit more.
I tend to agree with this. The movie isn't bad bad. To my estimation it isn't on the same level as Insurrection or The Final Frontier. In a lot of important ways it's really only a shade or two away from greatness, and indeed, to get back to being on topic, John Logan's actual script is terrific, laced with loads of genuine TNG moments. It certainly isn't his fault that director Stuart Baird completely eviscerated the movie in the editing room, literally ripping the heart out of the film in favor of ridiculous, popcorn-friendly set pieces.

Whereas I think a lot of criticisms of Insurrection are fully justified (it's a very sloppy script), I actually think most of what people say about Nemesis is nothing but a beat-up. If it had been more financially successful at the box office, I think it'd be far better appreciated today than it actually is.
Insurrection was actually a decent movie considering the budget they had to do it. My biggest problem with it is the complete assholery of the Ba'ku. They did not prove for even a second that they were worth the trouble Picard and crew were going to to save their sorry asses.

Nemesis was just horribly depressing, and the death of Data just completely kills it dead.
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Old January 24 2013, 12:16 PM   #148
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Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

John Logan's actual script is terrific, laced with loads of genuine TNG moments. It certainly isn't his fault that director Stuart Baird completely eviscerated the movie in the editing room, literally ripping the heart out of the film in favor of ridiculous, popcorn-friendly set pieces.
I could stand to hear some more about this. I was always under the impression it was Logan's script that was the problem. I must rummage around for one
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Old January 24 2013, 02:57 PM   #149
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Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

Australis wrote: View Post
John Logan's actual script is terrific, laced with loads of genuine TNG moments. It certainly isn't his fault that director Stuart Baird completely eviscerated the movie in the editing room, literally ripping the heart out of the film in favor of ridiculous, popcorn-friendly set pieces.
I could stand to hear some more about this. I was always under the impression it was Logan's script that was the problem. I must rummage around for one
Nah, adding more TNG moments wouldn't change anything about the stupid rest of the film.
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Old January 24 2013, 03:06 PM   #150
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Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Australis wrote: View Post
John Logan's actual script is terrific, laced with loads of genuine TNG moments. It certainly isn't his fault that director Stuart Baird completely eviscerated the movie in the editing room, literally ripping the heart out of the film in favor of ridiculous, popcorn-friendly set pieces.
I could stand to hear some more about this. I was always under the impression it was Logan's script that was the problem. I must rummage around for one
Nah, adding more TNG moments wouldn't change anything about the stupid rest of the film.
The entire film felt exactly like a funeral. The cast all seemed tired out, and the story was a real letdown at the end.

The story as is needed to end on a more upbeat note. Even TWOK ended up hopeful and upbeat.
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