Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemesis? - Page 10

Australis · January 11 2013, 11:31 PM

The mental rape scene.
B4
Shinzon
Stewart & Spiner's input
The buggy scene

None of these work.

sonak · January 12 2013, 05:16 PM

Am I the only one here who thought B4 worked? I mean, it went along well with the theme and also it makes sense that Soong would have had a more primitive prototype android rather than be able to create someone as advanced as Lore on the first attempt.

Australis · January 12 2013, 07:37 PM

Yep, you're the only one.

CorporalClegg · January 12 2013, 07:48 PM

sonak wrote:

Am I the only one here who thought B4 worked? I mean, it went along well with the theme and also it makes sense that Soong would have had a more primitive prototype android rather than be able to create someone as advanced as Lore on the first attempt.

As I suggested up thread, as a theme-aid Lore still works better. Plus he would have been a link to the show. But even had they used Lore, the connectivity still wouldn't have been strong or integral enough to warrant the subplot. It was just that superfluous.

Dale Sams · January 13 2013, 04:16 AM

I think using him as a surrogate for our 'goodbye to Data'...as I said upthread* would have worked.

*Drop the backdoor nonsense, have Picard drop him off at the Daystrom Institute.

BillJ · January 13 2013, 04:18 AM

CorporalClegg wrote:

sonak wrote:

Am I the only one here who thought B4 worked? I mean, it went along well with the theme and also it makes sense that Soong would have had a more primitive prototype android rather than be able to create someone as advanced as Lore on the first attempt.

As I suggested up thread, as a theme-aid Lore still works better. Plus he would have been a link to the show. But even had they used Lore, the connectivity still wouldn't have been strong or integral enough to warrant the subplot. It was just that superfluous.

But Lore could've never pulled off the specific mission Shinzon used B4 for. Lore would've been constantly scrutinized while aboard the Enterprise.

FKnight · January 23 2013, 09:33 PM

JarodRussell wrote:

But, but the audiences would have been too stupid to grasp that Data has an evil twin built by Dr. Soong and disassembled by the crew. It was easier to grasp that he has a stupid twin built by Dr. Soong and disassembled by Romulans.

The audience would have been to stupid to get that Picard has a little bit of history with a Romulan Admiral. It was easier to get that theres a Romulan Commander he has no history with.

You ain't kidding. I'm so glad no one involved with Star Trek was involved in LOTR. By the time Return of the King came around, they would have dropped the Frodo/Sam/Gollum/One Ring storyline because viewers shouldn't be expected to know what happened in parts 1 and 2.

BillJ · January 23 2013, 10:31 PM

FKnight wrote:

JarodRussell wrote:

But, but the audiences would have been too stupid to grasp that Data has an evil twin built by Dr. Soong and disassembled by the crew. It was easier to grasp that he has a stupid twin built by Dr. Soong and disassembled by Romulans.

The audience would have been to stupid to get that Picard has a little bit of history with a Romulan Admiral. It was easier to get that theres a Romulan Commander he has no history with.

You ain't kidding. I'm so glad no one involved with Star Trek was involved in LOTR. By the time Return of the King came around, they would have dropped the Frodo/Sam/Gollum/One Ring storyline because viewers shouldn't be expected to know what happened in parts 1 and 2.

It couldn't be Lore, the crew knew Lore. He wouldn't have been able to serve the same story purpose as B4. As far as Tomalok goes, Katsulas was a great actor but a couple of roughly sixty year old actors at the center of a sci-fi action movie doesn't exactly spell success.

I really don't think they were that far away from having a great movie on their hands with Nemesis. Hardy does as serviceable job as Shinzon, just needed to think through his actual motivations a bit more.

GalaxyX · January 23 2013, 10:53 PM

No, Hardy looks nothing like Picard and acts nothing like him.

All the straining the movie makes to try to suspend our disbelief that he *is* Picard fails miserably.

The photo of young Picard for instance.

I'm not sure what happened, since Hardy did an excellent Bane.

BillJ · January 23 2013, 10:58 PM

GalaxyX wrote:

No, Hardy looks nothing like Picard and acts nothing like him.

All the straining the movie makes to try to suspend our disbelief that he *is* Picard fails miserably.

I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure I'm a different person now than I was thirty years ago...

Lance · January 23 2013, 11:41 PM

BillJ wrote:

I really don't think they were that far away from having a great movie on their hands with Nemesis. Hardy does as serviceable job as Shinzon, just needed to think through his actual motivations a bit more.

I tend to agree with this. The movie isn't bad bad. To my estimation it isn't on the same level as Insurrection or The Final Frontier. In a lot of important ways it's really only a shade or two away from greatness, and indeed, to get back to being on topic, John Logan's actual script is terrific, laced with loads of genuine TNG moments. It certainly isn't his fault that director Stuart Baird completely eviscerated the movie in the editing room, literally ripping the heart out of the film in favor of ridiculous, popcorn-friendly set pieces.

Whereas I think a lot of criticisms of Insurrection are fully justified (it's a very sloppy script), I actually think most of what people say about Nemesis is nothing but a beat-up. If it had been more financially successful at the box office, I think it'd be far better appreciated today than it actually is.

GalaxyX · January 24 2013, 05:38 AM

Lance wrote:

BillJ wrote:

I really don't think they were that far away from having a great movie on their hands with Nemesis. Hardy does as serviceable job as Shinzon, just needed to think through his actual motivations a bit more.

I tend to agree with this. The movie isn't bad bad. To my estimation it isn't on the same level as Insurrection or The Final Frontier. In a lot of important ways it's really only a shade or two away from greatness, and indeed, to get back to being on topic, John Logan's actual script is terrific, laced with loads of genuine TNG moments. It certainly isn't his fault that director Stuart Baird completely eviscerated the movie in the editing room, literally ripping the heart out of the film in favor of ridiculous, popcorn-friendly set pieces.

Whereas I think a lot of criticisms of Insurrection are fully justified (it's a very sloppy script), I actually think most of what people say about Nemesis is nothing but a beat-up. If it had been more financially successful at the box office, I think it'd be far better appreciated today than it actually is.

Insurrection was actually a decent movie considering the budget they had to do it. My biggest problem with it is the complete assholery of the Ba'ku. They did not prove for even a second that they were worth the trouble Picard and crew were going to to save their sorry asses.

Nemesis was just horribly depressing, and the death of Data just completely kills it dead.

Australis · January 24 2013, 12:16 PM

John Logan's actual script is terrific, laced with loads of genuine TNG moments. It certainly isn't his fault that director Stuart Baird completely eviscerated the movie in the editing room, literally ripping the heart out of the film in favor of ridiculous, popcorn-friendly set pieces.

I could stand to hear some more about this. I was always under the impression it was Logan's script that was the problem. I must rummage around for one

JarodRussell · January 24 2013, 02:57 PM

Australis wrote:

John Logan's actual script is terrific, laced with loads of genuine TNG moments. It certainly isn't his fault that director Stuart Baird completely eviscerated the movie in the editing room, literally ripping the heart out of the film in favor of ridiculous, popcorn-friendly set pieces.

I could stand to hear some more about this. I was always under the impression it was Logan's script that was the problem. I must rummage around for one

Nah, adding more TNG moments wouldn't change anything about the stupid rest of the film.

GalaxyX · January 24 2013, 03:06 PM

JarodRussell wrote:

Australis wrote:

John Logan's actual script is terrific, laced with loads of genuine TNG moments. It certainly isn't his fault that director Stuart Baird completely eviscerated the movie in the editing room, literally ripping the heart out of the film in favor of ridiculous, popcorn-friendly set pieces.

I could stand to hear some more about this. I was always under the impression it was Logan's script that was the problem. I must rummage around for one

Nah, adding more TNG moments wouldn't change anything about the stupid rest of the film.

The entire film felt exactly like a funeral. The cast all seemed tired out, and the story was a real letdown at the end.

The story as is needed to end on a more upbeat note. Even TWOK ended up hopeful and upbeat.

January 11 2013, 11:31 PM	#136
Australis Writer Location: The Electric Age	Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes The mental rape scene. B4 Shinzon Stewart & Spiner's input The buggy scene None of these work. __________________ I will not accept tyranny, any tyranny, even that of Heaven - Terry Pratchett. Always choose cognac over cocaine. -- Jon Lord

January 12 2013, 05:16 PM	#137
sonak Rear Admiral Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination	Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes Am I the only one here who thought B4 worked? I mean, it went along well with the theme and also it makes sense that Soong would have had a more primitive prototype android rather than be able to create someone as advanced as Lore on the first attempt.

January 12 2013, 07:37 PM	#138
Australis Writer Location: The Electric Age	Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes Yep, you're the only one. __________________ I will not accept tyranny, any tyranny, even that of Heaven - Terry Pratchett. Always choose cognac over cocaine. -- Jon Lord

January 13 2013, 04:16 AM	#140
Dale Sams Captain	Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes I think using him as a surrogate for our 'goodbye to Data'...as I said upthread* would have worked. *Drop the backdoor nonsense, have Picard drop him off at the Daystrom Institute.

January 23 2013, 10:53 PM	#144
GalaxyX Rear Admiral Location: Canada	Re: Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemes No, Hardy looks nothing like Picard and acts nothing like him. All the straining the movie makes to try to suspend our disbelief that he is Picard fails miserably. The photo of young Picard for instance. I'm not sure what happened, since Hardy did an excellent Bane. __________________ I love chemicals!!!

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