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Old January 22 2013, 09:54 PM   #1321
Captaindemotion
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
^^^ Oh, I dunno. Tywin's interactions with Arya At Harrenhal were complete fabrications unique to the TV version and they were exceptionally well done, I thought.
They were very good, not least of all because of the excellence of Charles Dance and Maisy Williams. But the scenes in the book between Arya and Roose Bolton might have been just as good had they been left there.
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Old January 22 2013, 10:41 PM   #1322
Nagisa Furukawa
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
^^^ Oh, I dunno. Tywin's interactions with Arya At Harrenhal were complete fabrications unique to the TV version and they were exceptionally well done, I thought.
They were very good, not least of all because of the excellence of Charles Dance and Maisy Williams. But the scenes in the book between Arya and Roose Bolton might have been just as good had they been left there.
I understand why they had Roose Bolton be Robb's number two man in the season though (especially since the Greatjon actor left), to set him up as an adviser and ally, making "Jaime Lannister sends his regards"* all the more shocking. Of all my Season 2 complaints (and I have many), streamlining the story so Tywin met Arya at Harrenhal isn't one of them, even if it does go on for an episode too long (making Tywin leave Harrenhal at the same time Stannis is already on the sea to Blackwater Bay; by that time frame, Tywin arrived for the Battle of Blackwater in a RIDICULOUSLY short amount of time).

* I've listened to a couple audio book renditions of the Red Wedding and for some reason, NONE of the readers do "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" in the whispery voice of Bolton but instead shout it, even though the figure is wearing a pink cloak and Roose was actually told by Jaime Lannister to send his regards.
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Old January 22 2013, 10:46 PM   #1323
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I did notice that the Tywin/Arya "my lord" vs "m'lord" scene was actually lifted from a later scene in the books. I think it was
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Old January 23 2013, 12:39 AM   #1324
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Neither, actually; it's Roose Bolton warning Theon in A Dance with Dragons. Ironically, Arya calls him "my lord" when she's his cupbearer in A Clash of Kings, and he doesn't notice.

On another topic, Martin announced today that the cross-genre anthology Dangerous Women has been completed. His contribution is not, as was expected, the fourth Dunk and Egg story, but "The Princess and the Queen," "fake history" about the origins of the Dance of the Dragons, the Targaryen civil war. This is presumably either a preview of The World of Ice and Fire or a deleted sequence from it.
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Old January 23 2013, 03:06 AM   #1325
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

So, GRRM posted today in the blog that the upcoming anthology, Dangerous Women, will have (instead of a 4th Dunk & Egg story), a piece called The Princess and the Queen, which is:

well, it's some of that fake history I have been writing lo these many months, the true (mostly) story of the origins of the Dance of the Dragons.
http://grrm.livejournal.com/310198.html
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Old January 23 2013, 12:29 PM   #1326
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

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* I've listened to a couple audio book renditions of the Red Wedding and for some reason, NONE of the readers do "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" in the whispery voice of Bolton but instead shout it, even though the figure is wearing a pink cloak and Roose was actually told by Jaime Lannister to send his regards.
Is it definitely Bolton? I mean, the murder is seen from Catelyn's POV and she would know Bolton, but doesn't describe the murderer as him. Could the 'Jamie Lannister...' bit not just be something Bolton instructed one of his men to say to Rob, or could the man not just have overheard Jamie telling Bolton to send his regards to Stark, when they parted ways at Harrenhall?
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Old January 23 2013, 12:56 PM   #1327
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I take it you're talking about something that happened in the TV series. It sounds less and less appealing TBH.
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Old January 23 2013, 03:05 PM   #1328
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

^Me? No, I mean The Red Wedding from the third book.
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Old January 23 2013, 03:22 PM   #1329
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

The murderer is in armor, so Catelyn couldn't recognize him. But he's wearing a pink cloak, which is the Bolton color, and Roose had excused himself just before the fighting broke out, giving him time to put said armor on. It could be someone else, but I imagine Roose would have wanted to do the deed in person.
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Old January 23 2013, 03:24 PM   #1330
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
Is it definitely Bolton? I mean, the murder is seen from Catelyn's POV and she would know Bolton, but doesn't describe the murderer as him. Could the 'Jamie Lannister...' bit not just be something Bolton instructed one of his men to say to Rob, or could the man not just have overheard Jamie telling Bolton to send his regards to Stark, when they parted ways at Harrenhall?
IMO it's as close as possible without explicitly saying it. Roose Bolton gets up and leaves before the massacre begins and then at the very end, a man in a pink cloak stabs Robb and says "Jaime Lanniser..." Now yes, because of the POV structure, it's not explicitly stated "And then Roose Bolton appeared!" but given everything that happened before and after, I think it's fairly reasonable to say Roose Bolton personally killed Robb Stark.

And yes, Deckerd, as Captaindemotion said, we're discussing the scene from the book, not the TV series. The TV series won't be on the Red Wedding til later this year.
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Old January 23 2013, 04:19 PM   #1331
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

^ I always assumed that Roose just got up because he knew the shit was about to hit the fan and he didn't want to get pierced by a stray arrow.

I take your point, Martin doesn't always spell things out the way some writers do and you're far from the first person I've seen saying that he personally killed Robb. I just would have expected some reference to Cat knowing his voice or recognising him in some other way to ensure that the reader knew that it was him and not just one of his men who did the deed itself.

Either way, of course, he's complicit as hell in the whole thing and is as guilty as the man who thrust the blade (assuming it's not him).
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Old January 23 2013, 04:27 PM   #1332
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I don't think he wanted to ensure the reader knew, any more than he wanted to ensure the reader knew that the gravedigger on the Quiet Isle was Sandor Clegane, or that the Citadel novice Alleras was one of the Sand Snakes. They're Easter eggs for observant fans, to be made explicit when (if) necessary.
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Old January 23 2013, 04:28 PM   #1333
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

It'll become explicit in the TV series, because it's way harder to hide that stuff in the visual medium. We'll recognize Bolton's voice, and if the Gravedigger speaks we'll recognize HIS voice, etc.
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Old January 23 2013, 04:33 PM   #1334
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

In some cases they could still get away with it-- Michael McElhatton can disguise his voice for one line if they really care. But in others I doubt they'll even bother. The "Arstan Whitebeard" thing, for example.
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Old January 23 2013, 04:38 PM   #1335
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

^Is Ian McElhenny (Ser Barristan) back for the next series then? I know that Strong Belwas has been cast, but I wasn't sure about him.
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