Compiling episode scores? Scotty, we have a problem.

[The Warlord]

Dalen Quaice wrote:

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There are issues with just about every issue of Trek on video. The laserdiscs are not perfect because they were taken from the syndication masters. In syndication the opening/ending theme music was changed for a number of the early episodes that had the electronic sounding theme. Also, the original opening of The Man Trap with Gene Roddenberry's name in the opening credit (looking similar to Season 2) was changed along with the music. Some of William Shatner's opening VO's are not correct for the episodes. The VO was re-recorded a number of times over the course of the series, and often times they use a generic version instead of the episide specific version as that cuts the costs of doing multiple film transfers and restoration. As I recall, some epsiodes also lack "Also Starring" before Leonard Nimoy's name originally. The Desilu/Paramount logo is often slightly different at the end - sometimes with incorrect music or logos from other seasons, etc. Again, trivial to some but changes are changes...

Documenting all the changes over the years and comparing every version available is a huge undertaking and would require you to have very old copies of TOS as first syndicated by NBC (that still had the NBC logo intact at the end after the Desilu/Paramount logo) before the later late 70's changes were made. The problem is that most people may not have ever seen these early syndicated versions nor the original air copies -- and even if you have, you are going from memory from years ago unless you happen to have a copy.

As far as the cue sheets go -- I saw them for sale at a convention in the 70's. I should have bought them, but they were really very poor xerox copies bradded together... and I didn't realize I'd never see them again.

We will likely not see these from LA LA Land as you would instantly be able to notice music missing from their complete set. I also doubt that Jeff ever publishes a new book with more than 10 of the cue sheets -- and they are re-typed there so you still don't see the originals as apparently the cue sheets are considered legal documents which is why they can't be distributed as actual reproductions legally. However the data on these can be distributed if retyped... assuming someone has them? I have seen copies of William Shatner's contract around... someone must have them?

Ah, all very interesting! Had no idea Shatner's VO was recorded multiple times! Had no idea some of these were episode specific!

But as far as the actual episodes themselves go (not counting the opening/closing titles plus Desilu logo etc.) could anyone point out the music modifications to the actual episodes themselves? As I say, the only ones my ear can pick up on are Menagerie, II and Enemy Within...

[BeatleJWOL]

The Warlord wrote:

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could anyone point out the music modifications to the actual episodes themselves? As I say, the only ones my ear can pick up on are Menagerie, II and Enemy Within...

Agreed. The new box set pretty much settles the discussion of which main/end theme goes where; I'd very much like to know how specifically the surround mixes and/or "original broadcast" audio tracks on the Blu-rays differ.

[JimZipCode]

BeatleJWOL wrote:

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The cue sheets, according to several individuals involved in working on the boxed set, are Paramount's internal property and not able to be released.

I wonder if one of the main reasons for this is, Paramount feels they cannot release the cue sheets because they are documentary evidence of them violating the terms of the agreement with the musicians union. The business with the "Force Field" cue in Lights of Zetar is one example; and that's got to be the tip of the iceberg. If Paramount perceives legal issues, they will bury these things.

On the other hand – the mere existence of these recordings is itself a violation of that agreement. Tapes were supposed to be destroyed after each season. And I haven't heard anything about the musicians union being up in arms over this release. Would there really be more of an issue over documents?

[ssosmcin]

BeatleJWOL wrote:

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I'd very much like to know how specifically the surround mixes and/or "original broadcast" audio tracks on the Blu-rays differ.

Well, to document every single change in the sound mix would be a huge undertaking. Let's just say that certain music cues were substituted (The Menagerie Part 2) or added (The Deadly Years), while others used different takes of the original cues (The Doomsday Machine). The sound effects were changed across the board. Pilot and early first season bridge sounds were added to the mix in every episode; the Enterprise exterior engine rumble was added to every episode; photon torpedo sounds were added to Balance of Terror; "sliding door" sounds were added to the Klingon torpedo hits in Errand of Mercy and the memory beam in The Paradise Syndrome; the laser beams in The Cage vary in volume during firing and it is VERY annoying.

Really, seriously, it goes on and on and on. The Blu-Ray mono track for the first season seems accurate, but the 2006 version of the main theme is used at least once, the "cello" theme is used where it shouldn't, and so on. The mono tracks for the 2nd and 3rd seasons still have the engine rumble.

The sound mix is so thoroughly screwed up it will never be the same again. The VHS/LD mix isn't perfect either, but it's much closer to the original.

If anyone has 16mm prints of the episodes, those would have the original "night of broadcast" sound mix. To my knowledge, no alterations, other than the title of the Next Week preview, would have been made for prints sent out to for initial syndication.

[BeatleJWOL]

ssosmcin wrote:

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The Blu-Ray mono track for the first season seems accurate, but the 2006 version of the main theme is used at least once, the "cello" theme is used where it shouldn't, and so on.

In terms of music, man, music! It seems you know of three instances (excluding the main/end title mistakes, as I still think the CD set clears that up now) where the actual music was changed in terms of the Blu-ray's mono audio track. Are there more and do you know them? I understand completely if you don't have the time to write everything you know out, of course.

Just...to have every note of music from the series available on CD and not be able to put it into place has to frustrate somebody out there, yes?

[ssosmcin]

The music examples I listed are off the top of my head. There are more but I don't remember them off hand and I don’t really have time to go through the episodes. They aren't as bad as the sound effect changes, but they were enough that Neil/Indysolo went to the Lasers to do his sound checks and bad enough that I mostly watch the VHS/lasterdisc copies rather than the DVDs or Blu-Rays.

[The Warlord]

ssosmcin wrote:

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Let's just say that certain music cues were...added (The Deadly Years)...

Ooh...where abouts?

Also, for The Doomsday Machine, are you referring to music during Enterprise/space exterior shots?

Thanks,

Warlord

[ssosmcin]

In The Deadly Years, Stocker and Spock are having their discussion about the Extraordinary Competency Hearing in the corridor. Once Stocker orders it to get done, Spock enters the turbolift, the sting at the end of the pre-credits of the Doomsday Machine is plastered over the DVD/Blu-Ray print. It's not in the VHS/Laserdisc print.

The Doomsday Machine alternate music takes are at the end of act three ("he's gone") and the very end of the episode ("One's Enough").

[Dalen Quaice]

Speaking of The Doomsday Machine, off the top of my head I recall that a cue was missing after Spock had some dialogue on the bridge and also there was a place where Scotty was walking in the corridor of the Constellation that was different. Much like ssosmcin, I just do not have the time to sift through the episodes.

Also, the 2 episodes DVDs had a scene cut entirely in sick bay with Uhura/McCoy in The Tholian Web. It was restored for the box set release.

As mentioned, the Blu/DVD copies have sound effect changes and additions more often than music alterations.

[ssosmcin]

The 2 episode DVD version of The Doomsday Machine was missing the music where Kirk "intends to ram her right down that thing's throat." It was restored for all later issues.

In the Laser/VHS verison where Scotty suggests they check the duplicate captain's log, there's a one second silence just after the cue starts. This was fixed for the DVDs. Beyond that, and other than what I pointed out previously, the music is intact on the DVDs and Blu-Rays.

[Dalen Quaice]

ssosmcin wrote:

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If anyone has 16mm prints of the episodes, those would have the original "night of broadcast" sound mix. To my knowledge, no alterations, other than the title of the Next Week preview, would have been made for prints sent out to for initial syndication.

Yes, I own ~ a dozen episodes in 16mm, and I have about half of the series recorded off syndication broadcast from 16mm film chains (which is the way TV stations aired 16mm films). These days, I'm glad I saved the old recordings.

The "Next Week" title card was changed sometime ~ 1978 when the copyright was reclaimed by Paramount under the Copyright Act of 1976. Also removed around this time was the NBC Logo at the end that followed the Desilu/Paramount logo. Other changes were made to the syndication package ... including the omission of the electronic theme in the opening of early episodes and the use of incorrect opening VO/main titles on some episodes.

While a normal 16mm print sent to stations was complete, sans the trailer (trailers were on different reels and edited into the episodes, replacing the "Place Trailer Here" slug on the film) often stations would rather poorly hack the episodes to allow for more commercials and never show the trailers or all of the end credits. Not much attention was taken in some markets.

[mb22]

I recall viewing episodes syndicated on WPIX (Channel 11) in New York from 1975-78. Besides the hacking up of scenes, there were no trailers or NBC logos to be found.

[JarodRussell]

BeatleJWOL wrote:

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The cue sheets, according to several individuals involved in working on the boxed set, are Paramount's internal property and not able to be released. Jeff Bond did say, however, that he included several in his The Music Of Star Trek book by typing up the information himself.

Would could they possibly be losing by releasing them?

[ssosmcin]

The only time I saw the trailers on broadcast TV (before the Sci-Fi Channel aired them I guess) was during the 1970's reruns from Connecticut (WTNH). They ran the episodes complete with syndicated trailers amd it was an amazing thrill.

JarodRussell wrote:

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Would could they possibly be losing by releasing them?

There could be any number of comments on them or information they consider confidential. Or perhaps it's an added cost of securing the rights to release them. Internal documents are company property and, regardless of fan understanding, it's still their right to keep the originals private. They obviously don't mind transcriptions, but balk at releasing the originals. Unless a court issues a subpoena, we might as well just accept it.

[Dalen Quaice]

The purpose of the cue sheets is to determine royalty payments for BMI/ASCAP and AFM. AFM requires that musicians be paid every 13 weeks... so one might guess that some estates are still receiving payments based on these unless that requirement ends at some point. I am not aware of such an ending date, as long as the music is being used... but I'm not an entertainment lawyer so please chime in if you are more experienced than I am. Certainly they will receive a payment for the repurposing of the music for a CD. My point really is that CBS likely does not want people possibly questioning the royalties. Hollywood accounting has been documented for years -- we know that studios do not always live up to the contract details unless taken to court. Many times, the reason is that the people involved initially leave the studio and those that take over are unaware of existing deals... but nevertheless, it seems to happen.