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View Poll Results: Grade 'Liberty/An Enemy of Fate'
Excellent - Fringe at its very best 17 33.33%
Very Good 19 37.25%
Good 8 15.69%
Average 3 5.88%
Bad 4 7.84%
Really Bad 0 0%
Terrible beyond words - encase this ep in amber! 0 0%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 21 2013, 02:44 AM   #316
propita
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Re: Fringe Series Finale (Discussion, Spoilers)

FreezeC77 wrote: View Post
propita wrote: View Post
Please correct me if I'm wrong...

So all stayed the same to the point of the invasion by the Observers--but without the Observers being there to help Walter. Somehow Walter gets and saves Peter without Peter drowning, all on his own. And with this change, Olivia, Peter, and Etta are safe--but it looks like Peter remembers everything.

And, in the new timeline, Walter exists until 2015, when he suddenly disappears from this timeline.

And Michael is outside all timelines, since the one in which he was created never existed, but he was outside of it before it was changed.
It doesn't make complete sense, but Peter already was existing in a timeline in which he didn't exist before the reset. When Peter stepped into the universe machine and bridged the two universes he disappeared and a new timeline began.

So he was never actually saved by Walter in that timeline and the timeline in which he was saved by Walter had already been erased.
I, uh, am actually following what you're saying. Kinda scary.

TOTALLY OT: I'm watching the Baltimore/New England game. Baltimore is wearing leggings? They can call them whatever they want--those are leggings.
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Old January 21 2013, 11:35 AM   #317
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Re: Fringe Series Finale (Discussion, Spoilers)

Forgetting all of the other problems with time travel logic, Walter states that both he and Michael will be anomalies beyond 2015. I understand why Michael would be an anomaly, since he couldn't have been created by the Observers in the first place if they never existed, but I can't figure out why Walter would be an anomaly. Am I forgetting some critical interaction with the Obersvers he had? In this timeline, he and Peter were never saved by September, so it's not that ... so why would Walter be an anomaly?
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Old January 21 2013, 01:52 PM   #318
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Re: Fringe Series Finale (Discussion, Spoilers)

Forbin wrote: View Post
I don't participate in the threads while watching, but I always read them afterwards, and it was always fun reading you guys' running commentary. I'll miss it.
Same here.
I don't think there are any shows left that I watch, that people do live threads for on here now.
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Old January 22 2013, 01:48 AM   #319
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Re: Fringe Series Finale (Discussion, Spoilers)

There should not have been a 5th season. It was just a fetch-quest season; first, unAmber a tape, try to decifer it, go out and find the thing, and bring it back. Next! Plus, did they have to crawl out of the airducts every time they tried to leave? I loved the show and watched every episode, but I'm disappointed.
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Old January 22 2013, 01:59 AM   #320
Mr Light
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Re: Fringe Series Finale (Discussion, Spoilers)

That was a pretty good ending to a pretty lackluster final season.

So is Windmark dead or not? I went back and watched it twice. She TK slams a car into him, but he teleports away, but then there's a head-shaped blood smear on the window. So did she smush his brains as he tried to teleport away? Then why is there no body? Or did he survive? I wish we had a body for a definitive answer.

That was pretty effed up to kill September at the last second like that.

I think the greatest flaw of this episode, and the end of this season, is that having the kid be utterly silent and emotionless makes me not give one fig about him. The entire season revolves around him and I do not care at all about the character. Because he isn't a character. He's a plot device just sitting there who happens to be played by an actor.
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Old January 22 2013, 05:48 AM   #321
Enterprise is Great
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Re: Fringe Series Finale (Discussion, Spoilers)

I'm guessing thatWindmark was smashed mid teleport and his body or more accurately what was left of it ended up at whatever destination he had chosen before dying.
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Old January 22 2013, 06:18 AM   #322
gblews
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Re: Fringe Series Finale (Discussion, Spoilers)

Held off watching the finale until tonight (Monday). I dreaded seeing the show end. Very touching ending. Peter and Walter as well as September and Michael fully connecting as fathers and sons.

Was really cool seeing the Other Side team helping out. I had a feeling when Windmark was talking to his superior that he had been feeling some emotion. He reminded me a bit of Agent Smith in the Matrix for a moment there. Nice also seeing all the old Fringe diseases and horrifying conditions again -- hi guys.

Going to miss Walter Bishop. He is one of the best sci fi characters ever. He was the kind of character who could say or do anything and wouldn't seem out of character. Initially I was so against a Peter/Olivia hook up, but the writers did a good job making it not cringy.

I've often wondered how people decide on which genre shows to demand all the technobabble, psuedo science and plot twists make perfect sense and which ones to give a pass on.

I didn't think the finale was TNG, BSG, or Six Feet Under great, but it certainly was satisfying.
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Last edited by gblews; January 22 2013 at 06:32 AM.
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Old January 22 2013, 08:22 AM   #323
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Re: Fringe Series Finale (Discussion, Spoilers)

I came across this on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=poMK0fyJkVw
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Old January 22 2013, 03:05 PM   #324
Forbin
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Re: Fringe Series Finale (Discussion, Spoilers)

Checked out some of the interview videos on the side of that one - Bloody hell, Anna's an Aussie too!?!?
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Old January 23 2013, 10:45 PM   #325
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Re: Fringe Series Finale (Discussion, Spoilers)

Forbin wrote: View Post
Checked out some of the interview videos on the side of that one - Bloody hell, Anna's an Aussie too!?!?
Rupert Murdoch was once her uncle by his marriage to her aunt Anna Maria Torv. James Murdoch is her cousin.
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Old January 23 2013, 11:50 PM   #326
bigdaddy
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Re: Fringe Series Finale (Discussion, Spoilers)

Asbo Zaprudder wrote: View Post
Forbin wrote: View Post
Checked out some of the interview videos on the side of that one - Bloody hell, Anna's an Aussie too!?!?
Rupert Murdoch was once her uncle by his marriage to her aunt Anna Maria Torv. James Murdoch is her cousin.
And the only reason the show stayed on as long as it did.

I kid, they never met. The actor who played Peter once did an interview talking about getting renewed and brought up the fact maybe it was tiem for them to meet.
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Old January 24 2013, 12:49 AM   #327
Aeon
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Re: Fringe Series Finale (Discussion, Spoilers)

FreezeC77 wrote: View Post
It doesn't make complete sense, but Peter already was existing in a timeline in which he didn't exist before the reset. When Peter stepped into the universe machine and bridged the two universes he disappeared and a new timeline began.

So he was never actually saved by Walter in that timeline and the timeline in which he was saved by Walter had already been erased.
This is what I gathered as well. Essentially Peter is the "original" paradox that still exists... or can exists because of some weird quantum entanglement or whatever.

One huge detail that is very odd is the fact that invasion has happened in the perpetual now in 2036, but yet there is the future of 2609 practically unchanged... like it's just a different place on the map Windmark can visit anytime. Unless there is some sort of theory for this, perhaps involving the very important year of 2161, this is the biggest thing that doesn't make any sense.

Otherwise a great finale! Some very moving moments and a very fitting "end" for Walter. This time he took a boy through a portal to save the world and obviously succeeded, pretty much redeeming himself.
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Old January 24 2013, 11:28 AM   #328
Asbo Zaprudder
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Re: Fringe Series Finale (Discussion, Spoilers)

bigdaddy wrote: View Post
Asbo Zaprudder wrote: View Post
Forbin wrote: View Post
Checked out some of the interview videos on the side of that one - Bloody hell, Anna's an Aussie too!?!?
Rupert Murdoch was once her uncle by his marriage to her aunt Anna Maria Torv. James Murdoch is her cousin.
And the only reason the show stayed on as long as it did.

I kid, they never met. The actor who played Peter once did an interview talking about getting renewed and brought up the fact maybe it was tiem for them to meet.
Yeah, I also gather Anna Torv isn't very happy when anyone mentions the connection to her. I think it more to do with being estranged from her father than related to a media mogul.

Aeon wrote: View Post
FreezeC77 wrote: View Post
It doesn't make complete sense, but Peter already was existing in a timeline in which he didn't exist before the reset. When Peter stepped into the universe machine and bridged the two universes he disappeared and a new timeline began.

So he was never actually saved by Walter in that timeline and the timeline in which he was saved by Walter had already been erased.
This is what I gathered as well. Essentially Peter is the "original" paradox that still exists... or can exists because of some weird quantum entanglement or whatever.

One huge detail that is very odd is the fact that invasion has happened in the perpetual now in 2036, but yet there is the future of 2609 practically unchanged... like it's just a different place on the map Windmark can visit anytime. Unless there is some sort of theory for this, perhaps involving the very important year of 2161, this is the biggest thing that doesn't make any sense.

Otherwise a great finale! Some very moving moments and a very fitting "end" for Walter. This time he took a boy through a portal to save the world and obviously succeeded, pretty much redeeming himself.
If Peter can survive being a paradox, I don't see why Walter and Michael can't. I subscribe to David Deutsch's interpretation of the many-worlds theory - well, at least on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays I do.
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Old January 24 2013, 12:11 PM   #329
Aeon
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Re: Fringe Series Finale (Discussion, Spoilers)

Many-worlds theory would fix this easily, but it was clearly presented as a blue world future and the show always was contained between the blue and red universes. Today I found an interesting theory from a certain Omniscient_Jay and oddly enough that might do the trick! Even though it's just a theory and not explicitly laid out inside the show.

Omniscient_Jay wrote:
When the Observers first developed time-travel, they went to 2167 and used their tech to erect a temporal "dam" of sorts. This is a safeguard to protect their species Origin Point (Feb 20th, 2167) from temporal ripples that might come should temporal incursion happen pre-2167 (where the dam would hold back the "waters" of temporal change). With 2167-2600s being essential to causally justify Observer existence, it is forbidden to travel within that period, lest someone disturb the flow and alter Observer ontology.

This would explain why the actions of the Science Team and the multiple timeline alterations have not affected Future HQ; the ripples were held back by the space-time blockade, and the changes were generally confined to the 1985-2020s. The Science Team was concerned with restoring stability, however, potentially because the Loop might risk cracking the dam.

Whatever the case, this also applies for the Invasion. Once the foundation has been set and the preparation of their new planet is finally complete, the remaining Observers in 2609 will relocate to the 21st Century, the 2167 floodgates will be opened, and the temporal ripples of a history where Observer succeed in their Invasion would finally spread beyond 2617, likely undoing Future HQ (but it had been abandoned anyway, so it wouldn't matter anymore). Another implication is that for The Plan to work, Michael/Walter will either have to destroy this space-time barricade, or jump on the other side, which would allow them to alter Observer history.

Clearly, if The Plan involves changing the outcome of 2167, then that date must "anchor" the causality of the Observers, so the counterargument that the Observers "are impartial to all timeline changes by virtue of their nature" wouldn't apply here. I've championed that idea for a long time, but it is evidently obsolete, now, and in this barricade scenario, it is more that the Observers have shielded their Origin Point, and so long as that is preserved, they can withstand any timeline changes. Something to think about.
Or at least I thought it was an interesting read.
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Old January 24 2013, 01:17 PM   #330
Asbo Zaprudder
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Re: Fringe Series Finale (Discussion, Spoilers)

I think I recall Walter explaining the many-worlds interpretation at some point, but I guess the writers thought that two universes was as much as viewers could handle. If reality really does require anything that has a finite probability of happening to actually happen in at least one universe, I don't see how the Observers could shore up their temporal dam.
Anyway, the Vulcan Science Academy has determined time travel is not possible. Well, I assume they mean time travel into the past. I'm travelling into the future all the time.
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