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Old January 20 2013, 04:04 AM   #31
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Picardo: I Think I?ve Got The Worst Part

Come to think of it, I'm watching Author, Author right now, and why didn't they cite Data as precedent for giving rights to artificial intelligence? Seems like the writers made an oversight.

The Doctor wasn't designed to be sentient the way Data was, but it has been well established in Star Trek mythology that non-sentient machines can become sentient by becoming more complex. I think any debate about sentience in a Star Trek series has to use the established rules of the Star Trek universe.
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Old January 20 2013, 04:27 AM   #32
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Re: Picardo: I Think I?ve Got The Worst Part

I think Picardo got the best part, and it was mostly because he A) is a good actor and B) lobbied hard with the writers for interesting stuff. An actor shouldn't HAVE to access writers to like, be good, but it seemed to have worked in his case.
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Old January 20 2013, 06:52 AM   #33
stj
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Re: Picardo: I Think I?ve Got The Worst Part

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Come to think of it, I'm watching Author, Author right now, and why didn't they cite Data as precedent for giving rights to artificial intelligence? Seems like the writers made an oversight.
Author, Author! isn't about civil rights for holograms. It's about authorial control of their product, especially against time pressures. Think of the writers' room at Voyager bitching about Berman taking the latest draft script just because he wants to start now, instead of waiting until they have it right. Measure of a Man is wholly irrelevant. They could have centered the episode on Tom Paris, except that Paris was so perfect he wouldn't make a horrible draft that needed to be rewritten. Also, McNiell never really could carrry an episode.
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Old January 20 2013, 07:44 AM   #34
T'Girl
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Re: Picardo: I Think I?ve Got The Worst Part

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
... and why didn't they cite Data as precedent for giving rights to artificial intelligence?
If you're referring to Measure of a Man, there it was legally ruled that Data simply was not the property of Starfleet and for that reason did not have to expose himself to a possibly destructive investigative procedure ... unless he choose to.

The events with Lal (years later) show that artificial intelligences do not have rights (certainly not full rights) within the Federation.

"Is he the property of Starfleet? No."
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Old January 20 2013, 08:19 AM   #35
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Re: Picardo: I Think I?ve Got The Worst Part

EMH: You assured me you were going to wait for my revisions. I demand that you recall every copy and issue a public apology to Captain Janeway and her crew.
BROHT [on screen]: I won't do anything of the sort.
JANEWAY: I don't see that you have a choice, Mister Broht. Authors have rights.
BROHT [on screen]: Not in this case.
EMH: What do you mean?
BROHT [on screen]: The Doctor is a hologram.
EMH: So?
BROHT [on screen]: According to Federation law, holograms have no rights.
and

TUVOK: Your honour, Section seven gamma of the Twelfth Guarantee defines an artist as a person who creates an original artistic work. Mister Broht admits that the Doctor created this programme and that it is original. I therefore submit that the Doctor should be entitled to all rights and privileges accorded an artist under the law.
ARBITRATOR [on screen]: You've made a persuasive argument, Commander but there's a flaw in your logic. As you point out, the law says that the creator of an artistic work must be a person. Your EMH doesn't meet that criteria.
and finally...

ARBITRATOR: We're exploring new territory today so it is fitting that this hearing is being held at Pathfinder. The Doctor exhibits many of the traits we associate with a person. Intelligence, creativity, ambition, even fallibility, but are these traits real or is the Doctor merely programmed to simulate them? To be honest, I don't know. Eventually we will have to decide because the issue of holographic rights isn't going to go away, but at this time, I am not prepared to rule that the Doctor is a person under the law. However, it is obvious he is no ordinary hologram and while I can't say with certainty that he is a person I am willing to extend the legal definition of artist to include the Doctor. I therefore rule that he has the right to control his work and I'm ordering all copies of his holo-novels to be recalled immediately.
When you get down to it, in the final evaluation, the ruling was as if Abraham Lincoln had freed only one extraordinary black person who seemed to be just as "competent" as a white person and not 2/3rds of a white person like the rest, instead of all of the black people.

It was a chickenshit ruling.
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Old January 21 2013, 01:54 AM   #36
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Picardo: I Think I?ve Got The Worst Part

I think it called for at least a throwaway line: "I cite the case of Data vs Maddox, in which a machine intelligence was granted the rights of a sentient being." It seems like the first thing a lawyer who researched the issue would come across to me.

Yeah, it did seem like the ruling was a 'Sidestep the issue' ruling, and a cowardly attempt not to be the judge to gave holograms rights.
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Old January 21 2013, 02:19 AM   #37
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Re: Picardo: I Think I?ve Got The Worst Part

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I think it called for at least a throwaway line: "I cite the case of Data vs Maddox, in which a machine intelligence was granted the rights of a sentient being." It seems like the first thing a lawyer who researched the issue would come across to me.

Yeah, it did seem like the ruling was a 'Sidestep the issue' ruling, and a cowardly attempt not to be the judge to gave holograms rights.
Again as someone else pointed out, it's wasn't about civil rights. They had to determine if they considered a hologram "real" first before they even considered if he qualified as a sentient machine. The argument was: is the Doctor anymore real that a cartoon character?
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Old January 22 2013, 03:12 AM   #38
R. Star
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Re: Picardo: I Think I?ve Got The Worst Part

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I think it called for at least a throwaway line: "I cite the case of Data vs Maddox, in which a machine intelligence was granted the rights of a sentient being." It seems like the first thing a lawyer who researched the issue would come across to me.

Yeah, it did seem like the ruling was a 'Sidestep the issue' ruling, and a cowardly attempt not to be the judge to gave holograms rights.
I wonder if this is just a case if they mentioned Maddox of Louvois(might have misspelled that) they'd have to pay royalties. Though Voyager was never shy about after referencing TNG.

Also... why didn't Zimmerman testify in that instead of Barclay by proxy? Was the actor who played him not available?
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Old January 22 2013, 04:33 AM   #39
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Re: Picardo: I Think I?ve Got The Worst Part

R. Star wrote: View Post
Also... why didn't Zimmerman testify in that instead of Barclay by proxy? Was the actor who played him not available?
Had Zimmerman made a previous physical appearance at that point?
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Old January 22 2013, 04:34 AM   #40
R. Star
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Re: Picardo: I Think I?ve Got The Worst Part

Melakon wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Also... why didn't Zimmerman testify in that instead of Barclay by proxy? Was the actor who played him not available?
Had Zimmerman made a previous physical appearance at that point?
Being Barclay was testifying about how the EMH went and saved Zimmerman in Life Line... yes. He also appeared in DS9's Doctor Bashir I Presume previously too.
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Old January 22 2013, 04:41 AM   #41
Guy Gardener
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Re: Picardo: I Think I?ve Got The Worst Part

From Swam in Season 2

ZIMMERMAN: Don't touch that!
TORRES: Who are you?
ZIMMERMAN: I'm a holographic recreation of Doctor Louis Zimmerman, the creator of the Emergency Medical Hologram.
TORRES: You're the diagnostic matrix.
Louis Zimmerman was also the name of the human character the Doctor assumed in Projections. They probably referenced him as the creator of the EMH at some point.
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