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Old January 14 2013, 12:20 AM   #61
Greg Cox
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

RPJOB wrote: View Post
We also know that Vulcan had the death penalty in the 22nd century. We also have no indication that it was rescinded.
Heck, you can get executed at weddings on Vulcan!
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Old January 15 2013, 09:53 PM   #62
flandry84
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

Ben Maxwell.
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Old January 16 2013, 04:42 AM   #63
Sci
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

RPJOB wrote: View Post
It doesn't matter if all the members of the conspiracy are still in the fleet or not.
It does matter if your intent is to establish whether or not a precedent has been set. As I said before, I do not think a precedent can reasonably be said to have been set when the institution supposedly setting that precedent literally doesn't know about it.

Picard and the others did what they thought was right. Who are they then to tell someone else that they're wrong if other Captains, Admirals and such decide to remove Bacco for what they believe to be good and valid reasons?
Who's to say that Picard would thwart such a hypothetical anti-Bacco conspiracy? It's more likely the Protection Detail would.

Interesting side-note: Articles of the Federation established that Starfleet Security was responsible for protecting the President, but Destiny and Cold Equations: Silent Weapons established the existence of a new, civilian organization, the Protection Detail (a division of the Federation Security Agency), as being responsible for protecting the President after 2381. Since it would seem that Ross and company used their authority as admirals to empty the Palais of the Starfleet Security officers normally charged with protecting Zife, that's a positive indication that the scenario you're proposing is now considerably more difficult.

If it's OK for Picard to override the democratic wishes of the population of the Federation
That's one way of viewing it, and that's completely valid.

On the other hand, I'm fairly certain that the people of the Federation did not vote for Zife because they wanted him engaging in negligent homicide, mass murder, aggressive warfare, occupation, and obstruction of justice. And allowing such a monster to continue in office could reasonably be argued to be a travesty of liberal democracy, too.

As I said, I go both ways on this issue.

Who's to say the Federation has grown more lenient? There's numerous examples that the Federation is now willing, nay, expected, to allow entire civilizations to die because of the Prime Directive.
Penalties for violation of civil law are almost completely unrelated to foreign policy towards pre-contact societies. Movement in one area tells us little if anything about movement in another.

They've also known about section 31 since the time of Archer,
Wow. Wow, wow. Hold your horses there.

Who is "they?"

President Zife, in A Time to Heal, had no idea what Section 31 was, and had no idea who they were when he encountered their agents.

We know that Section 31 has some allies high in Starfleet -- and, given Ross's attitudes towards them, some who are terrified of them and so don't oppose them.

Does this represent significant institutional corruption? Of course.

Is that the same thing as the Federation government, as a whole, knowing about Section 31? No. In fact, indications are that most key political leaders in the UFP have never heard of Section 31.

To make a comparison: Does the existence of Nixon's Plumbers therefore indict the entire United States government?

made rousing speeches (in the novels as well) about bringing them down and yet Section 31 continues pretty much without opposition.
ENT: The Good That Men Do established very clearly that Section 31 was exposed and disbanded, and its operatives brought to justice, by the early 25th Century.

Kirk wasn't above threatening to destroy Flint's planet or Eminiar VII.
A Time to Kill explicitly established that the Federation Charter had been amended to ban the destruction of planets.

The Federation is not as nice and benevolent as people tend to ret-con it to be.
No, it is not. But it is also not as dark and insidious as you are making it sound.

The Federation is not utopia. It has significant instances of institutional corruption, and it sometimes violates people's rights. More than a few, of course, have accused it of being a homogenizing force, of seeking to impose its values on foreign cultures, and of being a force for cultural imperialism. They are not entirely wrong.

But the Federation is also not an utterly corrupt state. It is a polity that represents real and significant improvements in almost ever relevant area of modern politics. It is more politically stable and mature, more genuinely democratic, more egalitarian, more civil libertarian, more environmentally friendly, and more peaceful, on almost every level, than any society that exists in the real world. It's not the dark and dystopian society some people try to spin it to be.
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Old January 16 2013, 08:53 PM   #64
datalogan
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

I've also wondered whatever happen to the Douwd from TNG "Suvivors"
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Old January 17 2013, 05:46 AM   #65
Kertrats47
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

This may sound like a strange one, but I've been rewatching TNG in hi-def lately, and recently viewed the second season episode "The Dauphin." I would love to see Anya again. Her parting words to Worf that they may one day fight on the same side together were interesting... it would be pretty cool to see her and Worf team up. Similarly, and I may be alone in this, I wouldn't mind seeing Salia again either.

A little unorthodox or obscure, but for some reason their characters fascinated me this time around.
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Old January 19 2013, 04:02 PM   #66
Markonian
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

Dr Katherine Pulaski. I'd like to see her again. I liked her gruff character. Isn't there a free CMO place on any of the current starships we could slip her in? The Full Circle fleet maybe?

Also, I'd love to see the SCE people back. The last referenes where in A Singular Destiny and IFM.
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Old January 19 2013, 05:36 PM   #67
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

We did see Dr. Pulaski pop up on Terok Nor during the Cardassian occupation in Double Helix: Vectors, and according to Memory Beta, she's at Riker and Troi's wedding in A Time for War, A Time for Peace.

That being said, I agree it would be nice to see her pop up again.
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Old January 19 2013, 06:09 PM   #68
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

While I've never had anything serious against Pulaski as a character, I think most TNG fans would rather see her die horribly in a novel than anything else.
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Old January 19 2013, 06:41 PM   #69
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

Emh wrote: View Post
We did see Dr. Pulaski pop up on Terok Nor during the Cardassian occupation in Double Helix: Vectors, and according to Memory Beta, she's at Riker and Troi's wedding in A Time for War, A Time for Peace.
IIRC, she was featured as CMO of the U.S.S. Repulse in Peter David's TNG: Vendetta.
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Old January 19 2013, 06:43 PM   #70
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

She was also in the SCE story Progress. Still, we haven't heard anything about her in the 80's.
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Old January 19 2013, 10:28 PM   #71
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

TJ Sinclair wrote: View Post
While I've never had anything serious against Pulaski as a character, I think most TNG fans would rather see her die horribly in a novel than anything else.
I used to feel this way, but rewatching season two in HD has given me a new appreciation for the character. There were a few dropped hints about more to do with her character a few times. One of the most notable is when she's talking to the genetic engineering doctor over the viewscreen in "Unnatural Selection," and the doctor says "THE Dr. Pulaski? Author of -some important paper-?"
Picard looks at her with mild surprise, Pulaski looks embarrassed and says "That was a long time ago." I would have loved some more exploration of that! And I love her evolving relationship with Data, beginning with her callous dismissal of him to sticking up for him and worrying about his feelings in the final (regular) episode of the season, "Peak Performance." I'm not saying she was the best character ever, but I am definitely more interested in her this time around.
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Old January 20 2013, 01:49 AM   #72
Avro Arrow
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

TJ Sinclair wrote: View Post
While I've never had anything serious against Pulaski as a character, I think most TNG fans would rather see her die horribly in a novel than anything else.
Really? I've always liked the Pulaski character, and would like to see her return to Trek Lit (assuming she survived the Borg Invasion). TBH, I think I preferred her over Crusher.

Markonian wrote: View Post
She was also in the SCE story Progress. Still, we haven't heard anything about her in the 80's.
Geez... I still haven't read the What's Past omnibus. Gotta get moving on that one...
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Old January 21 2013, 09:15 PM   #73
Lee Son of Pete
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

Can I just say I dislike Bacco as a President and will support the coup when it comes
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Old January 21 2013, 10:24 PM   #74
lurok
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

TJ Sinclair wrote: View Post
While I've never had anything serious against Pulaski as a character, I think most TNG fans would rather see her die horribly in a novel than anything else.
As a non-TNG-but-Pulaski-fan, I might even be tempted to read a Treklit novel that featured her I imagine she'd be an...interesting character to write.
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Old January 21 2013, 10:57 PM   #75
Christopher
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

Lee Son of Pete wrote: View Post
Can I just say I dislike Bacco as a President and will support the coup when it comes
Couldn't you just support her opponent in the next election? Disliking an individual president is no excuse for rejecting the entire system of legitimate presidential succession.
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