Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

[Robert Comsol]

Potemkin_Prod wrote:

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Sorry about taking the thread off topic a bit.

Not at all, actually the contrary is the case as we're getting to the bottom of some important issues that concern the "casings" in the TOS engine rooms of which one was recently illustrated here on Engineering Deck 12.

Bob

[Robert Comsol]

blssdwlf wrote:

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Stated in dialogue, no. Visually, they used a holder for the crystals (the top that Spock lifts off) that contained something reflective inside which in "The Voyage Home" they show us a close-up of a similar looking holder that held the Klingon crystals (which was identified as such in the movie.)

(click to enlarge)

NOW...I do see and do assume to understand what you are / were trying to say with your "energizer room" theory.

Short and straight answer: This is the Star Trek II main energizer room!

First things first:

Enterprise gets hit, Scotty reports "main energizer is out!"
Switching to "batteries" will provide them with "auxilary power in a few minutes" which also enables them to have "a few phaser shots" (and the capability to beam several people down to the Genesis Cave, I should add).

Back on the ship Scotty reports "energizer is by-passed" and that's it.
Obviously, my official movie novelization from Vonda N. McIntyre (based on the screenplay) had to take over:

"What's the damage, Scotty?" - "Admiral, I canna put the mains back on-line! The energizer's burst; if I try to gi' it to ye, 'twill go critical!" - "Scotty, we've got to have main power! Get in there and fix it!"

That may not be dilithium-solid evidence, but for my taste I'd consider this to be pretty much rock solid.

Interestingly, the ST II engine room set up is more compatible with the TOS one than the one from TMP as my working premise, too, had been that the dilithium crystal converter assembly is not (yet) part of the "warp core" (movie lingo: "(intermix) chamber coil") but an adjacent component.

And that thingy Spock is working on shares a distinct design similarity with the TOS dilithium crystal converter assembly (it probably retracts into the floor for operation, too).

Khan really knew where to hit them and hard.

I also have to admit that the ST II energizer room reminds me a bit of the TOS dilithium crystal regeneration room from "The Alternative Factor" (i.e. if I were given the job to make a movie version of that room, it would probably look a lot like this one in ST II).

But I still do believe it's just the regeneration room. Given he context of the episode (a possible invasion into federation space), Kirk is rather upset when he learns that the dilithium crystals are not in top shape ("Re-Amplify, immediately!").

Orbiting the planet (and having transporting power thanks to the "batteries") the ship doesn't need the dilithium crystals, yet, thus Kirk understandably wants to see these fully regenerated so that he has full "crystal power" in case he will need it soon at which point of time the crystals will - of course - be put back in their converter assembly "cages".

IMHO, of course.

Bob

P.S. These latest posts really made my day! I take as conclusion that the proper designation of the TOS engine room floor casing with the dilithium converter assembly is "energizer" and these big GNDN props are probably the "batteries" or - in my world - fusion reactors.

P.P.S
Didn't I previously mention a rather insubordinate attitude of Scotty in "Elaan of Troyius"?
Kirk gives Scotty a clear and precise order. Apparently, the movie producers became aware of that and decided to let Scotty rather faint than disobey a direct order...

[blssdwlf]

I forgot to include this morning that I think the reason why the Klingon crystal holder looks so similar to the Enterprise's is from this line in TVH:

SCOTT: We're ready, sir. I've converted the dilithium sequencer into something a little less primitive.

I figured since Scotty changed the dilithium sequencer it was a nice touch to have it look like he pieced the dilithium holder from another Federation starship.

As to the floor casing of the TOS Engine room being the energizer, I would suggest that it is more the top of large energizer machinery that is below the floor. Kinda like how in TWOK that the crystals are on top of a shaft that leads down below to what I would imagine to be the energizers. I'd imagine that if Scotty in "Elaan" pulled the crystal holder out of the lift socket exposing the opening that radiation would probably pour into the engine room

Speaking of props re-used for "similar purposes" like the crystal holder, I think the most obvious one is the use of the TNG warp core in ST6. In ST6 it was never called the warp core or intermix shaft or anything yet we're okay to assume that it powers the ship...

[Robert Comsol]

blssdwlf wrote:

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SCOTT (ST IV): We're ready, sir. I've converted the dilithium sequencer into something a little less primitive.

I figured since Scotty changed the dilithium sequencer it was a nice touch to have it look like he pieced the dilithium holder from another Federation starship.

Great point. Then it's dilithium-solid, now!?

blssdwlf wrote:

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As to the floor casing of the TOS Engine room being the energizer, I would suggest that it is more the top of large energizer machinery that is below the floor. Kinda like how in TWOK that the crystals are on top of a shaft that leads down below to what I would imagine to be the energizers. I'd imagine that if Scotty in "Elaan" pulled the crystal holder out of the lift socket exposing the opening that radiation would probably pour into the engine room

Interesting idea. But I'm not yet sure regarding the details.

The problem: In "The Doomsday-Machine" and the ST II novel there is a clear reference to "main energizers" (ST II novel: "We're just hanging on, sir. The main energizers are out.")

Obviously, the main energizers play a vital role so the ship can have full phaser, shield and warp power, which we usually assume comes straight from the annihilation of protons and anti-protons and the reaction energy channeled through dilithium crystals (the antimatter particles have to have an electric charge, otherwise you couldn't contain these in a magnetic 'bottle').

According to TMP (and in general) we have this enigmatic "intermix formula" and there's been talk of a mixing ratio between matter and antimatter which makes no real science sense. One proton of antimatter will only annihilate one proton of corresponding matter, the formula is always 1:1.

It's rather the "sequence" of matter-antimatter reactions that will determine the yield of power, but then, that should be explicitly stated and I don't buy the theory that we are looking at yet another colloquialism.

What happens in a nuclear fusion reactor? You fuse lighter elements into heavier ones and in the process generate heat and electric energy.

Come to seriously think about, even in the 21st Century we are all still living in the "steam power" age as all can we can practically think of is to turn the heat from fission or fusion energy into steam to power turbines and generate electricity!

What would happen instead if you were to expose dilithium crystals to the energy of nuclear fusion????

Would you be able to convert the energy into some exotic energy necessary to add to the matter-antimatter annihilation plasma (intermix formula) and thus create the exotic energy to power phasers, shields and warp drive????

Apparently, by the time of TNG (or ST VI for that matter ) the dilithium crystals are a component inside the matter-antimatter reaction chamber but I don't see the necessity why this has to retroactively apply already to the technology seen in TOS and the first feature films.

I know this sounds heretic and unorthodox (as usual) but I think it may be worth further examination if it answers more questions than raising new ones.

Bob

P.S.

I'm currently busy working on the interior engineering levels around Engineering Deck 11. The current working premise is that the interior service corridor seen in "In A Mirror, Darkly" reveals the (deuterium) fuel lines running into matter-antimatter reactor # 3, partially visible in the background.
Apparently, the power network of the TOS Enterprise is an issue that needs to be settled, as the aim of my deck plans is not only to be screen-accurate and make it look good but also add a sense of functionality that is credible / palatable.

[Mytran]

I like that! It makes some sort of sense of the silly "intermix" notion, as well as putting the dilithium crystals in the category of "extremely useful" but not "essential" (since we know from Mudds Women that the ship can travel FTL either on batteries or by using the Converter Assembly to bypass the mains)

It has been postulated (by Blssdwlf I think) that some sort of "magic" function of the crystals was needed to provide some extra oomph to the engines - bathing the crystals in the roaring inferno of a fusion reactor does the trick for me!

The good bit is that it also provides a more natural transition into the TNG setup: Clearly, the "desk drawer" of the TNG warp core is some sort of mini fusion reactor that energizes the dilithium as the m/am makes contact with it, sending streams of "magic-ized" energy off to the engines.

[blssdwlf]

IIRC, my idea about the crystals was that they:
1. regenerated antimatter (and matter fuel) when m/am energy is applied to them by possibly borrowing from an antimatter universe
2. they store a charge like a giant capacitor or battery

I think fusion power could charge one up but it might not be energetic or special enough to create antimatter in return, so a fusion-powered ship with crystals would get the buffered power benefit but would still have to gather up fuel on it's own, IMHO

@Bob - I think there is ample evidence in TOS and in TWOK that points to the crystals being separate from the whole m/am reaction.

[Mytran]

Ah yes, thanks for refreshing my memory!

It's possible that the fusion bath is enough to trigger the "antimatter generation" that you mention? Certainly the link between dilithium and antimatter is evident from The Alternative Factor, although what that link is was of course never clearly defined. Also, if the crystals are really able to generate "free" antimatter in this way, it is in effect a shortcut to limitless energy. And while the Enterprise does "as we know from various episodes) regenerate its own power, this seems like a bit of an easy fix. Or maybe not, I may be missing something here!

What I find particularly appealing about Robert_Comsol's latest notion is that it more easily bridges the gap between TOS and later incarnations of Trek. While your explanation of "different timelines" is one way to explain the differences in the use of of your dilithium setup and the one on TNG, the holy grail would have to be finding one constant technological inerpretation that spans the different series and movies.

I do think that the popular TNG setup (matter at the top, antimatter at the bottom, anihilation takes place via a crystal in the centre) is probably a gross simplification of what actually occurs - and luckily, no onscreen dialogue ever says otherwise. So, what else could be happenning then? A miniaturised version of the TOS dilithium assembly is an attractive possiblity, at least.

[Robert Comsol]

blssdwlf wrote:

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IIRC, my idea about the crystals was that they:
1. regenerated antimatter (and matter fuel) when m/am energy is applied to them by possibly borrowing from an antimatter universe
2. they store a charge like a giant capacitor or battery

I remember from your thread several TOS quotes that do hint the ship's capability to "re-energize" itself, i.e. refuel antimatter but I find your antimatter universe idea to be too "exotic" - for my taste that is.

My understanding of crystals is limited but from what I've read they act as amplifiers (Kirk: "re-amplify"!) and oscillators. Thus, the output is bigger than the input and if I'm not totally mistaken you can use the extra output to generate new antimatter from ordinary matter (plenty available via the Bussard "sinks" and thanks to warped space). I'm aware it's equally exotic but I believe this to be within established treknological parameters.

I believe this charge storage idea to come from "The Alternative Factor" but having just seen the episode - again - (is this "Cause and Effect"? ) I can't help the feeling that it is rather the incredible amount of charges that is channeled through these (diminishing their capabilities, hence the necessity to regenerate, re-amplify or re-energize these) than an actual discharge of the crystals that's weakening their power (i.e. capability).

Let's also not forget that the screenplay is in some parts pure rubbish: Kirk arrives on a planet vis-a-vis the "good" Lazarus who consists of antimatter. This meeting couldn't take place, neither in our matter universe nor a hypothetical animatter universe.

We should take treknological conclusions from this episode with appropriate quantities of salt, IMHO.

Bob

[Robert Comsol]

Mytran wrote:

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It's possible that the fusion bath is enough to trigger the "antimatter generation" that you mention?

My idea is that once you channel the ionized fusion plasma through the dilithium crystals you integrate the exotic energy output you get (is that why they refer to a "matter-antimatter integrator"?) into the matter-antimatter annihilation plasma stream to get as a final result (intermix) the exotic energy you need for warp drive and - to some extent - creation of new antimatter.

Mytran wrote:

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Certainly the link between dilithium and antimatter is evident from The Alternative Factor, although what that link is was of course never clearly defined.

When the phenomenom happened first, they were able to measure a "drain" on the crystals, hence Kirk ordered Lt. Masters to immediately "re-amplify" these.
Later they used this "drain" to pinpoint the source of the space anomaly (i.e. used the crystals as a sensor) and Kirk ordered Lt. Masters to set up the experimentation chamber.

I don't really know what the screenplay writer had in mind.
Maybe he felt that if the crystals would have an amplifying effect to influence the fabric of normal space, then antimatter space would have a de-amplifying effect on the crystals.

Mytran wrote:

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I do think that the popular TNG setup (matter at the top, antimatter at the bottom, anihilation takes place via a crystal in the centre) is probably a gross simplification of what actually occurs - and luckily, no onscreen dialogue ever says otherwise. So, what else could be happenning then? A miniaturised version of the TOS dilithium assembly is an attractive possiblity, at least.

I found one comment from the ENT protagonist Tucker in "In A Mirror, Darkly" (or was he rather an antagonist in this episode? ) extremely illustrative:

Aboard the USS Defiant (NCC-1764) he said he felt like a "steamboat mechanic" who suddenly has to understand the mechanics of the first "interplanetary spacecraft". We are looking at a time difference between TOS and TNG of close to a 100 years.

In-universe I'd expect that the matter-antimatter propulsion concepts have evolved and what we've seen in TNG (or its era) is possibly a great leap forward - or just a very small step if already the Enterprise had such a TNG warp core in ST VI.

Bob

[blssdwlf]

Mytran wrote:

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Ah yes, thanks for refreshing my memory!

It's possible that the fusion bath is enough to trigger the "antimatter generation" that you mention? Certainly the link between dilithium and antimatter is evident from The Alternative Factor, although what that link is was of course never clearly defined. Also, if the crystals are really able to generate "free" antimatter in this way, it is in effect a shortcut to limitless energy. And while the Enterprise does "as we know from various episodes) regenerate its own power, this seems like a bit of an easy fix. Or maybe not, I may be missing something here!

Funny enough, I think one of the writers on TNG was thinking of this free energy as well. Remember in TNG's "Booby Trap", their answer for extending or making up for their loss of matter-antimatter energy supplies was to throw more reactants at the dilithium (rather than less to conserve fuel.)

LEAH [OC]: Theoretically, yes. The system should be able to accept more reactants at a faster rate of injection.
LAFORGE: Well, this is your baby. Show me which ones.
LAFORGE: Computer, did I ask for a simulation?
COMPUTER: Affirmative. You asked Doctor Brahms to show you which system could accept reactants at a faster rate.
By accessing available imagery, an adequate facsimile was possible.
LAFORGE: I did do that, didn't I? Okay, well, it's good to see you, Leah. Continue your analysis.
LEAH: Systems L-452 through L-575 will accept reactants, providing all other systems are calibrated to an equal factor.
LAFORGE: Then, if we use multiple injector streams, hitting more than one crystal facet, we could do it, we could hold our own. Leah, you're beautiful. La Forge to Picard.
PICARD [OC]: Go ahead.
LAFORGE: Captain, we've found a way to extend the matter-antimatter energy supplies.

I think going back to "Mirror,Mirror" and "The Alternative Factor" this is why these crystals are so sought after. Apply matter-antimatter energy to it and they give you back matter-antimatter fuel to use again!

Mytran wrote:

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What I find particularly appealing about Robert_Comsol's latest notion is that it more easily bridges the gap between TOS and later incarnations of Trek. While your explanation of "different timelines" is one way to explain the differences in the use of of your dilithium setup and the one on TNG, the holy grail would have to be finding one constant technological inerpretation that spans the different series and movies.

I do think that the popular TNG setup (matter at the top, antimatter at the bottom, anihilation takes place via a crystal in the centre) is probably a gross simplification of what actually occurs - and luckily, no onscreen dialogue ever says otherwise. So, what else could be happenning then? A miniaturised version of the TOS dilithium assembly is an attractive possiblity, at least.

It's possible that all they did was move the dilithium closer to the matter-antimatter reaction energy. The supposed difference in tech though is that in TNG they said dilithium regulates the reaction but in "Booby Trap" they appear also to give back as well. But I think the big difference is that the crystals no longer charge up or buffer energy. That seems to have been re-written for the main deflector...

Robert Comsol wrote:

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I remember from your thread several TOS quotes that do hint the ship's capability to "re-energize" itself, i.e. refuel antimatter but I find your antimatter universe idea to be too "exotic" - for my taste that is.

Yeah, it's exotic See my "Booby Trap" answer above.

Robert Comsol wrote:

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My understanding of crystals is limited but from what I've read they act as amplifiers (Kirk: "re-amplify"!) and oscillators. Thus, the output is bigger than the input and if I'm not totally mistaken you can use the extra output to generate new antimatter from ordinary matter (plenty available via the Bussard "sinks" and thanks to warped space). I'm aware it's equally exotic but I believe this to be within established treknological parameters.

I believe this charge storage idea to come from "The Alternative Factor" but having just seen the episode - again - (is this "Cause and Effect"? ) I can't help the feeling that it is rather the incredible amount of charges that is channeled through these (diminishing their capabilities, hence the necessity to regenerate, re-amplify or re-energize these) than an actual discharge of the crystals that's weakening their power (i.e. capability).

I figured when a crystal can be "drained" they are discharging their stored energy. The amount of charge they can hold seems to be tied to how healthy the crystals are, IMHO.

"The Alternative Factor"

LAZARUS: That's very bad, Captain. If he comes through at a time of his own choosing. But I think if we hurry and you will help me, he can yet still be stopped. There's little time left. He meant to come through. When you accidentally passed through, it drained his crystals. It'll take him about ten minutes to re-energise with the equipment aboard his ship. That should give us enough time.

"Day of the Dove"

SCOTT: There's no change, Captain. The dilithium crystals are discharging.

"The Voyage Home"

SCOTT: Admiral, we have a serious problem. Would you please come down? It's these Klingon crystals, Admiral. The time-travel drained them. They're giving out. De-crystallising.

Robert Comsol wrote:

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Let's also not forget that the screenplay is in some parts pure rubbish: Kirk arrives on a planet vis-a-vis the "good" Lazarus who consists of antimatter. This meeting couldn't take place, neither in our matter universe nor a hypothetical animatter universe.

We should take treknological conclusions from this episode with appropriate quantities of salt, IMHO.

Here we'll just have to disagree. The antimatter in Star Trek, and especially TOS, is clearly "different" than what real antimatter is:

1. Antimatter from the antimatter universe reacts only universe-catastrophically with it's matching counterpart.
2. A tiny amount of antimatter can blow off the atmosphere of a planet in "Obsession".
3. An unknown amount of antimatter destroyed a giant space organism the size of a planet in "The Immunity Syndrome".
4. Antimatter doesn't react immediately under certain conditions as spoken in "That Which Survives".

[Robert Comsol]

blssdwlf wrote:

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As to the floor casing of the TOS Engine room being the energizer, I would suggest that it is more the top of large energizer machinery that is below the floor. Kinda like how in TWOK that the crystals are on top of a shaft that leads down below to what I would imagine to be the energizers.

I would like to believe that this is what this actually would look like.
The "primary EPS relay" column seems to match rather good one of the top circular elements of the TOS energizer.

Bob

P.S.
Please disregard the centered EPS relay in my last draft for Engineering Deck 12

[Robert Comsol]

blssdwlf wrote:

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LAFORGE: Captain, we've found a way to extend the matter-antimatter energy supplies.

I think going back to "Mirror,Mirror" and "The Alternative Factor" this is why these crystals are so sought after. Apply matter-antimatter energy to it and they give you back matter-antimatter fuel to use again!

That's not how I read this dialogue. Geordi has merely found a way to make more efficient use of the available matter and antimatter supplies, thus allowing to make extended use of what's available.

I think there is a high probability that "drained" or "discharged" crystals are merely colloquialisms. To an ordinary person it may seem that the crystals' high output is because of a discharge while in fact it's merely the amplification of energy channeled into the crystal (though that would tell us a lot about the amplifying capabilities of these crystals. Wow! )

Where we are not looking at a colloquialism is "antimatter". There's a clear distinction bewtween matter, antimatter, dark matter and negative matter (and where it's not, it's probably just bad scriptwriting ).

Bob

[blssdwlf]

The Enterprise production folks would've scored gold if they had two columns like that but side-by-side that matched up with the TOS floor thingabob and with the paddle holder somehow present.

[blssdwlf]

Robert Comsol wrote:

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That's not how I read this dialogue. Geordi has merely found a way to make more efficient use of the available matter and antimatter supplies, thus allowing to make extended use of what's available.

So more efficient is to use more of it in the same span of time? "The system should be able to accept more reactants at a faster rate of injection." That just means burn more fuel. If they have a fixed gas tank, they'll use it up faster. However, the opposite is occurring as they are able to refill it faster than it is being drained by the booby trap. But, if that's where you're going with it, we'll just have to disagree

Robert Comsol wrote:

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I think there is a high probability that "drained" or "discharged" crystals are merely colloquialisms. To an ordinary person it may seem that the crystals' high output is because of a discharge while in fact it's merely the amplification of energy channeled into the crystal (though that would tell us a lot about the amplifying capabilities of these crystals. Wow! )

Hmm, if it were strictly amplifying energy instead of buffering and discharging how do you explain situations where the crystals become discharged and they are able recharge it again?

Or more specifically, if there is a constant flow of energy going into the crystal, the crystal should always amplify a constant output of energy. But we see instead that it takes time to recharge the crystals ("building up power", "re-energising", "re-amplifying") once discharged. If a constant flow of energy is going into a crystal they should never have a discharged state, you know?

[The Librarian]

Personally, I've always liked the idea that dilithium is what turns the energy produced by a matter-antimatter reaction into something useful. Most of what comes out of the reaction is neutrinos and gamma rays, neither of which are useful for power. The dilithium does something - possibly related to 'transtator' technology - that captures them and turns them into heat, electrical power, or something else that can actually be used to energize the plasma in the reactor system. The system may still work without the dilithium in there, but the vast majority of the energy produced with be useless (and also it will be spewing gamma rays).

blssdwlf wrote:

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So more efficient is to use more of it in the same span of time? "The system should be able to accept more reactants at a faster rate of injection." That just means burn more fuel. If they have a fixed gas tank, they'll use it up faster. However, the opposite is occurring as they are able to refill it faster than it is being drained by the booby trap. But, if that's where you're going with it, we'll just have to disagree

Actually, that may be the case. Depending on exactly how the dampening field works, it may be more efficient to have fewer but more powerful pulses of energy coming from the reactor instead of many smaller ones.