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Old January 18 2013, 07:03 AM   #76
barnaclelapse
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

BruntFCA wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
BruntFCA wrote: View Post
Tuvix-You know the episode where Janeway murders someone? Yeah I'll go with that.
But at the same time she saves Tuvok and Neelix.
By murdering an innocent man.
That's one of the few VOY episodes I like. It definitely doesn't make things easy for the viewer, and it does that in the best way possible.
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Old January 18 2013, 07:11 AM   #77
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

Because of this thread, I am watching Dear Doctor again after many years of not watching it. My comments about its merits remain unchanged. All the comments I made above are still valid in my book.

Yet, the episode still leaves me unsettled. Very rare do films or shows leave me with that feeling. I'm not sure I agree with the decision, but I'm thankful that the episode brings up the dilemma. I think sometimes the best dramas should leave leave us stirred and unsettled.
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Old January 18 2013, 07:35 AM   #78
Dale Sams
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
Because of this thread, I am watching Dear Doctor again after many years of not watching it. My comments about its merits remain unchanged. All the comments I made above are still valid in my book.

Yet, the episode still leaves me unsettled. Very rare do films or shows leave me with that feeling. I'm not sure I agree with the decision, but I'm thankful that the episode brings up the dilemma. I think sometimes the best dramas should leave leave us stirred and unsettled.
Well, the OP is 'what ep most made you go..."what the hell are you guys doing??" So yes, the ep certainly has merit.

As for the original question, I would thing the final episode of Voyager, featuring Admiral Kathryn "Shatterer of Worlds" Janeway would be the winner.
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Old January 18 2013, 07:37 AM   #79
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
I liked Dear Doctor and For the Uniform because I don't mind the controversy.

I just can't stand Profit and Lace...
Controversy is alright if there are consequences to it, I find. In The Pale Moonlight is an amazing episode because you see Sisko feeling conflicted and guilty for being involved in the murders of a Romulan Senator, a criminal Holoprogrammer, and the senator's guards, in order to bring the Romulans into the war. That's some amazing television.

For the Uniform lacked any consequences for Sisko. It would have been interesting if Starfleet came close to tossing him out of the service for such an appalling action, but stop due to the political considerations involving the Bajorans. That, or have some Maquis remnant attempt to assassinate him out of anger.
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Old January 18 2013, 07:53 AM   #80
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

I still don't remember anything from it. Perhaps I'll watch it later or tomorrow. But from what little I gather from the thread, Phlox acted correctly.

The whole point of non interference is meant to ensure Starfleet's footprint on the galaxy is as small as possible and that any involvement or action maintain transparency. In other words, treat everyone and anything as if you were never there in the first place. It's like when you go camping and the ranger tells you to leave your site exactly the way you found it.

The problem is, people confuse enlightenment with morality and justice. They are not the same. Phlox's actions May not have been moral. They may not have even been just. But they were enlightened.

To play devil's advocate let me pose this hypothetical:

Say it's 1519 and some Vulcan scientist is in the Sol system doing a survey. He starts having engine trouble and has to land. He ends up smack dab in the middle of Tenochtitlan.

It's right after La Noche Triste and Montezuma has just won his decisive battle and Cortez is retreating. However, the first bodies have already started falling and Smallpox has infected a good portion of the city's population.

Back in his shuttle, the Vulcan has enough hypos to inoculate the entire city and surrounding tribes. Does he do it? Does he have the right to, and if so, should he be obligated?

Remember, if it wasn't for the smallpox, Montezuma probably would have chased after Cortez and annihilated his army--or at least decimated it to the point they had not other option but to retreat back to Spain.

In the meantime, all those surrounding tribes who had long hated the Aztec had started to realize they had a grave common enemy. In the months it would have taken more Spanish armies to return, they could have allied. This would have had massive implications on the long-term evolution and progress of Western culture.

Of course, the Vulcan doesn't know any of this. All he has is his logic and what he sees in front of him.

What does he do?
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Old January 18 2013, 08:06 AM   #81
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
I still don't remember anything from it. Perhaps I'll watch it later or tomorrow. But from what little I gather from the thread, Phlox acted correctly.

The whole point of non interference is meant to ensure Starfleet's footprint on the galaxy is as small as possible and that any involvement or action maintain transparency. In other words, treat everyone and anything as if you were never there in the first place. It's like when you go camping and the ranger tells you to leave your site exactly the way you found it.

The problem is, people confuse enlightenment with morality and justice. They are not the same. Phlox's actions May not have been moral. They may not have even been just. But they were enlightened.

To play devil's advocate let me pose this hypothetical:

Say it's 1519 and some Vulcan scientist is in the Sol system doing a survey. He starts having engine trouble and has to land. He ends up smack dab in the middle of Tenochtitlan.

It's right after La Noche Triste and Montezuma has just won his decisive battle and Cortez is retreating. However, the first bodies have already started falling and Smallpox has infected a good portion of the city's population.

Back in his shuttle, the Vulcan has enough hypos to inoculate the entire city and surrounding tribes. Does he do it? Does he have the right to, and if so, should he be obligated?

Remember, if it wasn't for the smallpox, Montezuma probably would have chased after Cortez and annihilated his army--or at least decimated it to the point they had not other option but to retreat back to Spain.

In the meantime, all those surrounding tribes who had long hated the Aztec had started to realize they had a grave common enemy. In the months it would have taken more Spanish armies to return, they could have allied. This would have had massive implications on the long-term evolution and progress of Western culture.

Of course, the Vulcan doesn't know any of this. All he has is his logic and what he sees in front of him.

What does he do?
Thank you for an awesome post.

I'm thankful for all the posts and reviews on this episode, from Jammer to SFDebris (who hold opposite views.

As I said, watching it tonight left me unsettled. It's a level of drama that is surprisingly deep but stems from rather simple origins. It's also such an early episode. I am thankful for the questions.

Maybe they should have saved the Valakians. Maybe not. That's the question, and, regardless of whether one thinks that additional scenes should have been put in of Archer examining his answer to this question doesn't change the fact that they made it clear that his decision wasn't an easy one to come up with (remember, they only have 43 minutes and change to tell a story) and I appreciate these challenges.

I think it's a well-made episode, well told, and quite different.
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Old January 18 2013, 01:45 PM   #82
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

no. its a vile episode. phlox displays twisted immoral logic not seen since the crazy bad guy from Human Centipede and tries to say it was all 'space destiny' and mustn't be questioned. pathetic.

and if it was well told the arguements would have been in the episode itself. not 'oh there probably wasn't time'
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Old January 18 2013, 04:15 PM   #83
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
2. Phlox's race doesn't have a Hippocratic Oath? REALLY? Can his ass. I don't want my life jeoperdized by the moral whims of my Chief Medical Officer.
They really don't. In the episode The Breach, Phlox refuses to treat a patient of a species that has bad blood with the Denobulans. The reason being the patient stated he didn't want a Denobulan treating him and its against Denobulan medical eithics to act against a patient's wishes. While discussing the matter with Archer, Archer says "he's wounded, you're a doctor. Aren't you required to save his life?" Phlox answers "Hippocrates was not a Denobulan."
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Old January 18 2013, 05:52 PM   #84
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

junxon wrote: View Post
no. its a vile episode. phlox displays twisted immoral logic not seen since the crazy bad guy from Human Centipede and tries to say it was all 'space destiny' and mustn't be questioned. pathetic.

and if it was well told the arguements would have been in the episode itself. not 'oh there probably wasn't time'
The episode wasn't just about the situation on the planet. The episode was about Phlox and his relationship to the crew. The planet thing was merely a way to boil the pot. That subplot did bring with it it's share of controversy. But to call it a vile episode just because you disagreed with decisions that characters made seems to be narrow vision. The episode itself was far from careless. It was filled with subtle character moments and astute observations about the human condition, and I feel that every Star Trek fan would know enough to give it its due credit. But I guess some would prefer to throw a blanket over their head rather than look at the controversy- like a child that covers themselves and believes that if he can't see mommy, than mommy can't see him!
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Old January 18 2013, 06:19 PM   #85
Dale Sams
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
I still don't remember anything from it. Perhaps I'll watch it later or tomorrow. But from what little I gather from the thread, Phlox acted correctly.

The whole point of non interference is meant to ensure Starfleet's footprint on the galaxy is as small as possible and that any involvement or action maintain transparency. In other words, treat everyone and anything as if you were never there in the first place. It's like when you go camping and the ranger tells you to leave your site exactly the way you found it.

The problem is, people confuse enlightenment with morality and justice. They are not the same. Phlox's actions May not have been moral. They may not have even been just. But they were enlightened.

To play devil's advocate let me pose this hypothetical:

Say it's 1519 and some Vulcan scientist is in the Sol system doing a survey. He starts having engine trouble and has to land. He ends up smack dab in the middle of Tenochtitlan.

It's right after La Noche Triste and Montezuma has just won his decisive battle and Cortez is retreating. However, the first bodies have already started falling and Smallpox has infected a good portion of the city's population.

Back in his shuttle, the Vulcan has enough hypos to inoculate the entire city and surrounding tribes. Does he do it? Does he have the right to, and if so, should he be obligated?

Remember, if it wasn't for the smallpox, Montezuma probably would have chased after Cortez and annihilated his army--or at least decimated it to the point they had not other option but to retreat back to Spain.

In the meantime, all those surrounding tribes who had long hated the Aztec had started to realize they had a grave common enemy. In the months it would have taken more Spanish armies to return, they could have allied. This would have had massive implications on the long-term evolution and progress of Western culture.

Of course, the Vulcan doesn't know any of this. All he has is his logic and what he sees in front of him.

What does he do?
Well hopefully he was injured in the crash and right before the Aztec healer treats him...the chief stops him and says, "We can't interfere in his destiny, what if he goes on to become some dictator?"
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Old January 18 2013, 06:44 PM   #86
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

FSB, if it had been a good episode the crew would have called phlox out on his bullshit and HE would've been the one to learn a lesson. as is we must bow down the the mystical unquestionable evolution-destiny. this is one episode where accepting the other viewpoint is nothing short of evil. it is genocide.

you should take a long hard look at yourself and your sense of morality for your stance on this episode.
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Old January 18 2013, 06:48 PM   #87
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

junxon wrote: View Post
FSB, if it had been a good episode the crew would have called phlox out on his bullshit and HE would've been the one to learn a lesson. as is we must bow down the the mystical unquestionable evolution-destiny. this is one episode where accepting the other viewpoint is nothing short of evil. it is genocide.

you should take a long hard look at yourself and your sense of morality for your stance on this episode.
I guess you don't read all of my posts. I am not sure I agree with Phlox. I am not sure they shouldn't have called him out. Or not.

But isn't that what makes an episode great, one where the answer given isn't always the answer I like?
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Old January 18 2013, 06:59 PM   #88
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
junxon wrote: View Post
FSB, if it had been a good episode the crew would have called phlox out on his bullshit and HE would've been the one to learn a lesson. as is we must bow down the the mystical unquestionable evolution-destiny. this is one episode where accepting the other viewpoint is nothing short of evil. it is genocide.

you should take a long hard look at yourself and your sense of morality for your stance on this episode.
I guess you don't read all of my posts. I am not sure I agree with Phlox. I am not sure they shouldn't have called him out. Or not.

But isn't that what makes an episode great, one where the answer given isn't always the answer I like?
I don't have to agree with it, but I expect the episode to be internally consistent... which it isn't. I also expect the episode to offer a fair view to both sides of the dilemma... which it doesn't.

That is why I consider the episode poor.
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Old January 18 2013, 07:12 PM   #89
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

BillJ wrote: View Post
Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
junxon wrote: View Post
FSB, if it had been a good episode the crew would have called phlox out on his bullshit and HE would've been the one to learn a lesson. as is we must bow down the the mystical unquestionable evolution-destiny. this is one episode where accepting the other viewpoint is nothing short of evil. it is genocide.

you should take a long hard look at yourself and your sense of morality for your stance on this episode.
I guess you don't read all of my posts. I am not sure I agree with Phlox. I am not sure they shouldn't have called him out. Or not.

But isn't that what makes an episode great, one where the answer given isn't always the answer I like?
I don't have to agree with it, but I expect the episode to be internally consistent... which it isn't. I also expect the episode to offer a fair view to both sides of the dilemma... which it doesn't.

That is why I consider the episode poor.
I think it both of these things.

Internally consistent: it stays largely, if not entirely, from Phlox's POV.

As for the other point, the discussion in the mess hall covers this as well as I could expect it to. In addition to other scenes.
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Old January 18 2013, 07:36 PM   #90
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

I think one of the most interesting conundrums of the human condition, (and this was brought up in films like Good Will Hunting where the main character is giving the reasons he won't work for the NSA) is that we are constantly in this zone where we can either act on something because we think it's right in the present, or we can over-think things and not act at all, because we can attempt to formulate all of the future repercussions of that action. I think the point that Dear Doctor was making (in addition to just telling us more about Phlox as a character) is that humans are always in this uneasy precipice between these two perspectives.
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