Anti-Spock racism/general disrespect for the XO

[BillJ]

plynch wrote:

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How would it go in the Navy if someone on a sub or carrier talked to his/her XO the way Boomer, Styles, McCoy et al. talk to Spock?

Boma?

[T'Bonz]

Captain Tracy.

When something is said about toning it down and NOT GETTING PERSONAL, I expect posters to do just that - tone it down.

If you choose to not listen to what I have to say, your tenure on this board will be short.

No more personal stuff in this thread going forward. It's a damned Star Trek board and the last thing I want to do is come on and read pissy fights.

[Captain Tracy]

T'Bonz wrote:

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Captain Tracy.

When something is said about toning it down and NOT GETTING PERSONAL, I expect posters to do just that - tone it down.

If you choose to not listen to what I have to say, your tenure on this board will be short.

T'Bonz -

Since you have elected to single me out by name, why not simply communicate with me via PM ?

Your general announced instructions were to keep it "TREK TALK ONLY" and "NO GENERAL COMMENTS ON MODERN SOCIETY".

And not:

"TONE IT DOWN and NOT GET PERSONAL", being wholly different and contrary instructions which have just now suddenly appeared at this immediate moment.

"You are being clever Commander; that is unworthy of a Romulan".

As obviously, "There remains a Truth which remains unspoken" regarding unspoken posting policies which apply specifically to me, of which you will not state publicly.

Therefore, let us discuss the matter, in PM, where you can state and define what it is you actually are asking for, in an environment where you can speak freely, openly, and Truthfully, concerning the real posting rules.

Please show me the same effort, and good-will, as I extended to you in complying with your actual General Announcement.

Your pending PM is most welcome.

T'Bonz wrote:

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OK guys. Trek talk only. If you need to get more general, or talk about modern society, there are other places on the BBS to do so. Thanks.

.

[Warped9]

"TREK TALK ONLY" and "NO GENERAL COMMENTS ON MODERN SOCIETY".

Seriously, this quite a blurry line. When people are talking about something like racism (or some other topical subject) within context of the show it's inevitable to bring in real world examples and experiences as a comparative standard from which to assess the accuracy or calibre of what we're seeing onscreen. If you can't discuss comparative examples from the real world then the discussion of the subject at hand becomes essentially meaningless.

If the examples and ensuing discussion are "on point" in regards to the subject discussed from within the show then it's definitely relevant and cannot fairly be prohibited.

[Anwar]

BillJ wrote:

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It was still there in The Wrath of Khan and in bits and pieces in the other films.

Well, after TMP Spock finally realized his "Logic is better" stuff was all BS and it ultimately led to an empty existence, so he finally realized he'd be better off just accepting his irrational human side. He had a far more content life after that.

After the TWOK/TSFS thing wherein McCoy had Spock in his head, he toned down the racism.

[Captain Tracy]

Warped9 wrote:

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Seriously, this quite a blurry line. When people are talking about something like racism (or some other topical subject) within context of the show it's inevitable to bring in real world examples and experiences as a comparative standard from which to assess the accuracy or calibre of what we're seeing onscreen. If you can't discuss comparative examples from the real world then the discussion of the subject at hand becomes essentially meaningless.

If the examples and ensuing discussion are "on point" in regards to the subject discussed from within the show then it's definitely relevant and cannot fairly be prohibited.

Considering STAR TREK was specifically designed to be - by its intent and in its execution - a vehicle for the writers to comment specifically on our 'Modern Society' - through the use of parallelisms and allegory - by examining the human condition, and more specifically, the human experience against a futuristic backdrop.... Without which, not only makes any discussion 'Meaningless', as you say, but is totally contrary to Roddenberry's original intent; and is wholly against his personal writing philosophy that the "only STAR TREK story worth telling IS when its "personal".

Which is why the examination of topics like RACISM, CULTURALISM, WHATEVERISM, be it against SPOCK, or KIRK, and thereby inciting a thought provoking exchange of ideas, opinions. and perspectives - was the real MAGIC of STAR TREK.

Gene knew people of ANY race, culture, religion, or whatever would carry their DIFFERENCES of their INDIVIDUALITY into the future,.. and if MAN was to remain MAN, and the Human Race survive as a species, they were going to have to figure out how to 'get along' DESPITE those differences,...

and not by pretending they do not exist - or speak of them - or embrace them, through submission of the mind, free will, and individuality -to the point of becoming a mono-colored, mono-thinking , mono-cultured, mono-everything,... humongous Amoeba of no distinctive characteristics, personality, or perspective.

That is Ultimate Slavery in its worst form; it is the complacent acceptance of slavery of the HUMAN SPIRIT.

But, until I receive an initial PM from T'Bonz, and get these 'new rules' clarified and defined, I am not sure if I can even personally thank ANWAR (The Ram) for sharing his PERSONAL opinions on SPOCK, based on his first-hand experience with RACISM in the MODERN WORLD,.. where in the USA, it is true many Elementary and Junior High Schools now forbid one team to WIN - as the other team would by default be the 'Losers' - And, even though he forgot to answer my question if he shared the same opinion as I do regarding the hypocrisy of SPOCK wearing a UFP uniform ::AHEM:::

It is only through the understanding of each others PERSPECTIVES which is going to get our DIVERGENT species through the Aeons; and that can only happen through the exchange of our opinions, attitudes, and personal experiences in a censorship-free society.

Roddenberry knew that; that's why we even have such a show to TALK about today.

[BeatleJWOL]

Captain Tracy wrote:

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and not by pretending they do not exist - or speak of them - or embrace them, through submission of the mind, free will, and individuality -to the point of becoming a mono-colored, mono-thinking , mono-cultured, mono-everything,... humongous Amoeba of no distinctive characteristics, personality, or perspective.

Seems Roddenberry had the same thought, at one point: http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/New_Humans

[Trekker4747]

Just to chime in here... Spock and McCoy were supposed to be friends. It didn't always come across this way, for sure, but they were friends. So McCoy's jabs at Spock was one friend picking on another. Sure, McCoy may have gotten heated in his rants on Vulcans and it may have extended past Spock at times but McCoy couldn't be racist if one of his closest friends was a member of that race.

[Anwar]

Thing is though, like you said there were plenty of times where it was hard to believe they WERE friends they way they swiped at each other. So it comes off as more a cases of inconsistency that looks better in hindsight (especially the movies toning it down and giving them both character development).

[TremblingBluStar]

I am glad this subject was brought up, because when I was going through TOS a few months ago, I was rather shocked by how Spock was treated at times by his subordinates. I can't point to any specific examples that haven't been noted, but I certainly got the impression that the writers never agreed on Spock's role, or the relationship between Vulcan and the Federation.

Take, for example, that McCoy said early on the Vulcan was conquered, implying that the Vulcans didn't enter the Federation voluntarily (though this is debatable). I recall it being mentioned later in the series as well.

Spock's race was sometimes Vulcan, sometimes Vulcanian. It wasn't simply a matter of them not settling on a name until later in the show, as Vulcanian was used in the third season as well.

[YARN]

TremblingBluStar wrote:

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I am glad this subject was brought up, because when I was going through TOS a few months ago, I was rather shocked by how Spock was treated at times by his subordinates. I can't point to any specific examples that haven't been noted, but I certainly got the impression that the writers never agreed on Spock's role, or the relationship between Vulcan and the Federation.

Take, for example, that McCoy said early on the Vulcan was conquered, implying that the Vulcans didn't enter the Federation voluntarily (though this is debatable). I recall it being mentioned later in the series as well.

Spock's race was sometimes Vulcan, sometimes Vulcanian. It wasn't simply a matter of them not settling on a name until later in the show, as Vulcanian was used in the third season as well.

About as progressive as the 60's gets. Spock gets a lot of insubordination from junior officers in TOS. No way the XO should have been getting that much mess from the crew.

[Captain Tracy]

TremblingBluStar wrote:

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I am glad this subject was brought up, because when I was going through TOS a few months ago, I was rather shocked by how Spock was treated at times by his subordinates. I can't point to any specific examples that haven't been noted, but I certainly got the impression that the writers never agreed on Spock's role, or the relationship between Vulcan and the Federation.

Take, for example, that McCoy said early on the Vulcan was conquered, implying that the Vulcans didn't enter the Federation voluntarily (though this is debatable). I recall it being mentioned later in the series as well.

Spock's race was sometimes Vulcan, sometimes Vulcanian. It wasn't simply a matter of them not settling on a name until later in the show, as Vulcanian was used in the third season as well.

To be fair, it wasn't that the writers 'couldn't agree', as the writer's had little to no control over - barring interminable re-writes against a ceaseless count-down - of what gets approved through the production process and what does not, and what actually ends up being broadcast - just ask Harlen Ellison, he'd love to explain it to you; being rumored to be a somewhat verbose fellow.

Again, the so-called RACISM between the characters was present in 1966 STAR TREK because Roddenberry meant it to be there, that's the only reason why the characters behave the way they do - and he was subtly TRYING to tell you a something other than _____ism is bad.

Sadly, that subtle message (warning) has been purposely TWISTED and REPLACED in later 'versions' of the show with a wholly different and antithetical message.

Sad, but true, even the 'Great Birds' eventually get trapped in cages on the Prison Plant,... and submit to the might agenda,.. that is if they want to work in Hollywood.

Sometimes they just quit,.. sometimes they end up doing both.

[T'Bonz]

Don't hold your breath. What I said, while directed at you, is applicable in general, hence my public post.

Plus - when someone blows me off, I want to make damned sure no one else is stupid enough to do so going forward.

Captain Tracy wrote:

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Your pending PM is most welcome.

* *

Warped - it depends. When it's on topic, that's one thing. But when it gets into personal attack and pissing matches and is veering off topic, that's when it does not belong.

People know the difference. And I'm not going to sit and split legal hairs, my time is too valuable. That comment is not directed at you personally but a general statement. Too many posters want a firm line, mostly so they can fuck with me.

Not happening.

* *

This forum is for TOS talk. If people want to talk generally about racism, there are other appropriate forums.

[Captain Tracy]

Anwar wrote:

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Well, after TMP Spock finally realized his "Logic is better" stuff was all BS and it ultimately led to an empty existence, so he finally realized he'd be better off just accepting his irrational human side. He had a far more content life after that.

My point exactly.

In the end, even SPOCK, the culturally proudest, biggest racist, and most outwardly INDIVIDUAL of them all,...

finally relinquishes his freedoms of individual opinion, individual attitude, and 'His Right to be Different",..... and SUBMITS his will to the big agenda, through INTEGRATING and EMBRACING THE DIVERSITY of HIS "SELF",..

and finally finds 'complacency' in that submission,.. at least that's what the advertisement is repeatedly broadcasting, as literal 'PROGRAMING'.

Do anyone today actually still think that term "Broadcast Programming" was used by the Television Industry by sheer coincidence?

Bah!,.. or more properly "Baah,.. baah,...baah".

And that's the subtle and sinister message being subliminally implanted within the stories today.

What dark, "dangerous visions" to postulate, unless you simply don't know how read the real story.

[plynch]

BillJ wrote:

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Boma?

HA, yes, Boma.