Farscape or Babylon 5?

[kirk55555]

Well, thats not exactly true, atleast of the first season and parts of the second. I have no problem if people like it. I just got fed up with it, at got to the point where the bad outweighed the good to me. A lot of people think differently, and thats fine.

[Angel4576]

Kegg wrote:

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That's the first time I've ever seen that statement to be honest. I can understand liking Babylon 5 better overall, but Farscape's first season was actually pretty damn good, while Babylon 5's was mostly dire.

I'd say it's more a case of B5's first season going from the sublime to the ridiculous tbh. And the Sky Full of Stars, Mind War, Signs & Portents, Babylon Squared, Chrysalis were far from dire. Grail,TKO, Infection OTOH......

Lindley wrote:

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Season 3 is easily my favourite year of Farscape.

Mine too. In fact, by season's end, it's been a pretty amazing year.

Overall, Farscape had some truly great characters, and some terrific writing, but B5's series-spanning narrative is just irresistible, and then, some of the characters are pretty unbelievable too (G'kar, Londo...)!

Either way, let's just be grateful that there's room enough for both (and DS9! )

[JD]

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it horrible. I honestly thought the writing for Farscape was one of it's best elements. And the cloned John storyline really was actually really good, and it lead to some even better stuff once they got back to one John. You really did stop at one of the best points in the entire show.

[Lindley]

Kind of figures seeing as he also skipped some of the most memorable episodes entirely.

[kirk55555]

JD wrote:

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Just because you don't like something doesn't make it horrible. I honestly thought the writing for Farscape was one of it's best elements. And the cloned John storyline really was actually really good, and it lead to some even better stuff once they got back to one John. You really did stop at one of the best points in the entire show.

Really? From what I remember, Chiana was being a whiney, usless character, as always. Jool was showing me that Farscape writers could write a character worse than Chiana. Stark was going from an ok character to being the cause of most of the bad things that happen to the main characters. Talyn was still used as a lame way to get Moya into trouble, and Scorpius was still pretty useless, and had unclear motives.

John just got done with a chip in his head, although the annoying Scorpius in his head may not have been gone yet (does it stick around after he's cloned? Is there now 2 fake Scorpius's?). D'Argo and Chiana broke up because she banged his son.

Also, I know these events might be out of order or already have been resolved when I stopped watching (after Eat Me), its just the way they popped into my head.

Lindley wrote:

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Kind of figures seeing as he also skipped some of the most memorable episodes entirely.

Oh, yes. The oh so important Princess trilogy (aka story cliche #4567) and the second fake Earth story. I'm sorry if I didn't want to see another "someone has to marry a person they don't love, while their true love watched" story, which has probably been done by 90% of the TV shows with a love interest in them, or a fake Earth episode (wasn't the horrible A Human Reaction enough when it came to fake Earths). I think there were 1 or 2 other episodes I skipped, but the only ones I remember people caring about were the Princess episodes and Won't get Fooled Again. I have no regrets skipping those. I would probably have jumped through a window if I had been forced to watch WGFA, considering how badly I hated AHR and how horrible the goofy clips of it were on youtube.

In the end, its all a matter of personal opinion. Its fine if others think the writing is good. We don't have to agree. Heck, I like a lot of Star Trek Voyager, while some people say its a horrible series. To me, Farscape is a show that had a lot of potential that was ruined by bad characters and writing that was all over the place. There were some excellent episodes (like The Way We Weren't) and characters/ideas. There were also horrible episodes, characters and ideas. Those elements were becoming the majority of the episode, so I stopped watching.

[Sindatur]

Guys, can we stop polluting his thread with beating the dead horse of Fascape? Yes, I did my fair share of telling him how wrong he was to skip some episodes, but, it's time we moved on, and let him have his thread back, IMHO.

Maybe he can revisit Farscape in 5 or 10 years and have a different perspective, when he's at a different place in life, or when the landscape of available Space Opera that's new to him is slimmer? I recently revisited Voyager and Enterprise both, after missing at least half of the episodes in first run, and I found I enjoyed them much more now, than I then. I don't know if it's because I let go of preconceived notions, or if there's so little Space opera that's new to me now, so, my tolerance level increased, or maybe a combination of both.

Continuing to beat on him, at this point isn't going to change anything, and is gonna leave the wound more raw. So, let's let it go, and enjoy (or beat on him for) his reveiws of Babylon 5.

[Kegg]

Sindatur's right to an extent. I've given greater lattitude to space opera shows in the last decade and the final two Treks in particular simply because they well, exist, which is a rarity in today's TV landscape.

Angel4576 wrote:

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I'd say it's more a case of B5's first season going from the sublime to the ridiculous tbh. And the Sky Full of Stars, Mind War, Signs & Portents, Babylon Squared, Chrysalis were far from dire.

Those are all good episodes, although I'd add probably Believers and subtract Mind War. What weighs them down however is most of the rest of the season. B5 was just a difficult show to get into and appreciate the damn point of doing so when going through season one.

Lindley wrote:

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Kind of figures seeing as he also skipped some of the most memorable episodes entirely.

While it's true he skipped some of the funniest and best written and important and most memorable episodes of the show's run, and it's even hypothetically true he might have liked at least some of them, it's clear he just didn't care for Farscape so it's kind of irrelevant as to whether or not he saw them. He watched over a quarter of the series and wasn't impressed, that's not a view that would have likely changed.

[Angel4576]

Kegg wrote:

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Those are all good episodes, although I'd add probably Believers and subtract Mind War. What weighs them down however is most of the rest of the season. B5 was just a difficult show to get into and appreciate the damn point of doing so when going through season one.

I find the first season to be better in retrospect than on first viewing. I remember when it first aired, Soul Hunters and Born to the Purple literally put me to sleep. If I'd watched Infection the following week then that would probably have been the third strike and out. Luckily I missed it and subsequent episodes were better.

On subsequent viewings, Soul Hunters and Born to the Purple have always seemed better than my initial viewing, largely because you know how aspects of those stories relate to the wider arc.

Which raises another point I guess - you can't really just watch B5 once. Once you've seen the show through once, it's fun to go back and look out for all the foreshadowing that you missed the first time around.

[Sindatur]

Angel4576 wrote:

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I find the first season to be better in retrospect than on first viewing. I remember when it first aired, Soul Hunters and Born to the Purple literally put me to sleep. If I'd watched Infection the following week then that would probably have been the third strike and out. Luckily I missed it and subsequent episodes were better.

On subsequent viewings, Soul Hunters and Born to the Purple have always seemed better than my initial viewing, largely because you know how aspects of those stories relate to the wider arc.

Which raises another point I guess - you can't really just watch B5 once. Once you've seen the show through once, it's fun to go back and look out for all the foreshadowing that you missed the first time around.

Very good point.

I watched in first run, religiously, and the only first season episodes that I disliked were Infection and TKO, but, yea, even episodes I enjoyed on first watch are better on a rewatch. I've gained a better appreciation for TKO, over the years, but, Believers has been lowered.

[kirk55555]

Kegg wrote:

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While it's true he skipped some of the funniest and best written and important and most memorable episodes of the show's run, and it's even hypothetically true he might have liked at least some of them, it's clear he just didn't care for Farscape so it's kind of irrelevant as to whether or not he saw them. He watched over a quarter of the series and wasn't impressed, that's not a view that would have likely changed.

I was impressed by some stuff. I liked the premise and most of the main characters. The Pilot/Aeryn stuff especially was always good (which probably explains why my favorite episode is The Way We Weren't). John, D'Argo, Zhaan and Rygel were usually good. While Crais's motivation was a bit weak in the beginning, he was somewhat interesting and could have been a good main villain (heck, atleast his motivation made sense, unlike Scorpius). So, some of the show did impress me, and I liked it well enough. If it had continued like it was in the early days, it could have easily been a show I loved. But, they went a different route, where annoying characters and annoying cliches were the focus. Also, maybe its because I get annoyed a bit when people say the episodes I skipped were "good", but now I wish I had watched The Princess trilogy, just so that people would stop acting like its the most amazing thing ever and I was wrong not to watch it. I read an indepth summary, its one cliche stretched over three episodes, with John also becoming a statue because....well, just because, as far as I can tell. Its fine if you like it, but I could name a number of episodes I did watch that were much more worthy of being watched.

Also, I really hope that when you say I skipped the

Kegg wrote:

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funniest and best written and important and most memorable episodes of the show's run

that atleast you weren't including Won't Get Fooled Again in that (I'd also argue that The Princess Trilogy/WGFA were in no way important overall, since I got 15 episodes farther than the Trilogy, and it was never brought up, not even once, in any of the episodes). The clips I've seen are enough for me to say that WGFA would have made me hate life. I hate humor like it was doing (not that I'd really call it "humor", since it was about as funny as a rock to the head). Did you see the weird sexual scene with Nurse Aeryn and creepy Zhaan and Chiana? That clip is one of the worst things I ever saw involving Farscape, and that is saying something. WGFA was neither important, nor well written. I will say that it was memorable, but thats not always a good thing.

I know I should just start ignoring the Farscape conversation, I'm probably only succeeding in getting annoyed and annoying people, but The Princess Trilogy and WGFA are sore spots for me. I don't care if people complain that I skipped something like Beware of Dog. But, I just don't understand the love for a trilogy that is based off a cliche that has been done in almost every TV show with a love interest in history. That doesn't mean I'll ever watch it (I'm slightly curious, but I have better ways of using my time, like watching grass grow), but its confusing how many people defend stuff like that. I've never said its wrong if other people like those episodes I skipped, I just get fed up with people saying I missed "The Best Episodes EVAR" with the Princess Trilogy. Also, I DID like a lot of parts of Farscape, and it had potential. In the end I gave up, but good writers could have easily made it a good show. I don't hate it, and its not like it didn't have some very good parts. It just declined until watching it felt like a waste of time, and that everything good had been abandoned.

I've been putting off B5 because the upcoming episodes (There All the Honor Lies, And Now for A Word and In The Shadow of Z'ha'dum) make it seem like the season is going to hit a rough patch for a few episodes just based off the summarires, but I'll probably start watching later today, if for no other reason than to get past the Farscape stuff. Also, just incase someone asks/says something, unlike Farscape I never skip B5 episodes because, even if they aren't great (I can count on less than one hand how many episodes so far in the series have actually been outright bad, B5 has been pretty consistently good so far) they're atleast important, unlike a lot of the bad Farscape episodes. Not that I expect the next few episodes to be bad, its just that their summaries (especially There Are the Honor Lies) does not fill me with confidence.

[Leroy]

kirk55555 wrote:

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To me, Farscape is a show that had a lot of potential that was ruined by bad characters and writing that was all over the place. There were some excellent episodes (like The Way We Weren't) and characters/ideas. There were also horrible episodes, characters and ideas. Those elements were becoming the majority of the episode, so I stopped watching.

At least you gave Farscape a shot unlike countless people who would dismiss it outright for containing muppets or some other superficial feature.

kirk55555 wrote:

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I've been putting off B5 because the upcoming episodes (There All the Honor Lies, And Now for A Word and In The Shadow of Z'ha'dum) make it seem like the season is going to hit a rough patch for a few episodes just based off the summarires, but I'll probably start watching later today, if for no other reason to get pass the Farscape stuff.

What you do need to do however is STOP reading summaries on wikipedia and basing opinions on episodes solely on them, instead just watch the next episode preview on the DVD, watch the episode then form your own opinion.

[Sindatur]

kirk55555 wrote:

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I was impressed by some stuff. I liked the premise and most of the main characters. The Pilot/Aeryn stuff especially was always good (which probably explains why my favorite episode is The Way We Weren't). John, D'Argo, Zhaan and Rygel were usually good. While Crais's motivation was a bit weak in the beginning, he was somewhat interesting and could have been a good main villain (heck, atleast his motivation made sense, unlike Scorpius). So, some of the show did impress me, and I liked it well enough. If it had continued like it was in the early days, it could have easily been a show I loved. But, they went a different route, where annoying characters and annoying cliches were the focus. Also, maybe its because I get annoyed a bit when people say the episodes I skipped were "good", but now I wish I had watched The Princess trilogy, just so that people would stop acting like its the most amazing thing ever and I was wrong not to watch it. I read an indepth summary, its one cliche stretched over three episodes, with John also becoming a statue because....well, just because, as far as I can tell. Its fine if you like it, but I could name a number of episodes I did watch that were much more worthy of being watched.

Also, I really hope that when you say I skipped the

that atleast you weren't including Won't Get Fooled Again in that (I'd also argue that The Princess Trilogy/WGFA were in no way important overall, since I got 15 episodes farther than the Trilogy, and it was never brought up, not even once, in any of the episodes). The clips I've seen are enough for me to say that WGFA would have made me hate life. I hate humor like it was doing (not that I'd really call it "humor", since it was about as funny as a rock to the head). Did you see the weird sexual scene with Nurse Aeryn and creepy Zhaan and Chiana? That clip is one of the worst things I ever saw involving Farscape, and that is saying something. WGFA was neither important, nor well written. I will say that it was memorable, but thats not always a good thing.

I know I should just start ignoring the Farscape conversation, I'm probably only succeeding in getting annoyed and annoying people, but The Princess Trilogy and WGFA are sore spots for me. I don't care if people complain that I skipped something like Beware of Dog. But, I just don't understand the love for a trilogy that is based off a cliche that has been done in almost every TV show with a love interest in history. That doesn't mean I'll ever watch it (I'm slightly curious, but I have better ways of using my time, like watching grass grow), but its confusing how many people defend stuff like that. I've never said its wrong if other people like those episodes I skipped, I just get fed up with people saying I missed "The Best Episodes EVAR" with the Princess Trilogy. Also, I DID like a lot of parts of Farscape, and it had potential. In the end I gave up, but good writers could have easily made it a good show. I don't hate it, and its not like it didn't have some very good parts. It just declined until watching it felt like a waste of time, and that everything good had been abandoned.

I've been putting off B5 because the upcoming episodes (There All the Honor Lies, And Now for A Word and In The Shadow of Z'ha'dum) make it seem like the season is going to hit a rough patch for a few episodes just based off the summarires, but I'll probably start watching later today, if for no other reason than to get past the Farscape stuff. Also, just incase someone asks/says something, unlike Farscape I never skip B5 episodes because, even if they aren't great (I can count on less than one hand how many episodes so far in the series have actually been outright bad, B5 has been pretty consistently good so far) they're atleast important, unlike a lot of the bad Farscape episodes. Not that I expect the next few episodes to be bad, its just that their summaries (especially There Are the Honor Lies) does not fill me with confidence.

There All The Honor Lies - The merchandising part of the story, yes, is mostly fluff, but, there's some good humor, but, The Minbari stuff is great, IMHO.

And Now For a Word, I think is very good

In The Shadow of Zhadum - is excellent and unveils some important pieces of the Mythology

[kirk55555]

With "There All the Honor Lies" its actually the main story that I'm not sure about, same with ITSOZ. ANFAW just sounds weird. I'm definately going to watch them, I've just been putting it off for a few days.

[Sindatur]

Leroy wrote:

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What you do need to do however is STOP reading summaries on wikipedia and basing opinions on episodes solely on them, instead just watch the next episode preview on the DVD, watch the episode then form your own opinion.

Yea, I don't get this. If you've got the next episode available to watch, why do you want to read a summary or even watch a preview? Just dive right in and let it unfold without any preconceptions. Previews are only needed when you have to wait for the next episode and want to get your excitement juices flowing, and spoilers like episode summaries should only be used to ease the pain of waiting for the next episode to air.

When I'm watching a series on DVD, I don't want to know anything about the episode before I watch it, if it's new to me.

[Angel4576]

kirk55555 wrote:

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With "There All the Honor Lies" its actually the main story that I'm not sure about, same with ITSOZ. ANFAW just sounds weird. I'm definately going to watch them, I've just been putting it off for a few days.

In The Shadow of Z'ha'Dum is a huge episode. Along with The Coming of Shadows it's easily one of my favourite episodes of the second season.

Also, once you're past that three episodes, you have Knives, and then five absolute belters to round out the season.

Edit: And Now for a Word is actually a decent episode. There All the Honour Lies - it's ok, not great, but watchable.