RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,584
Posts: 5,403,557
Members: 24,866
Currently online: 594
Newest member: Enterprise Capt

TrekToday headlines

October-November 2014 Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

Cho Selfie TV Alert
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

TPTB To Shatner: Shhh!
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

Mystery Mini Vinyl Figure Display Box
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

The Red Shirt Diaries Episode Five
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

Shatner In Trek 3? Well Maybe
By: T'Bonz on Sep 28

Retro Review: Shadows and Symbols
By: Michelle on Sep 27

Meyer: Revitalizing Star Trek
By: T'Bonz on Sep 26

Trek Costumes To Be Auctioned
By: T'Bonz on Sep 25

Hulu Snaps up Abrams-Produced Drama
By: T'Bonz on Sep 25


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 17 2013, 09:52 PM   #46
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: most "wrong" episode...

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
I liked Dear Doctor ...because I don't mind the controversy.
I just can't stand the stupidity that the episode expects us to buy.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2013, 09:59 PM   #47
Flying Spaghetti Monster
Vice Admiral
 
Flying Spaghetti Monster's Avatar
 
Location: Flying Spaghetti Western
Re: most "wrong" episode...

BillJ wrote: View Post
Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
I liked Dear Doctor ...because I don't mind the controversy.
I just can't stand the stupidity that the episode expects us to buy.
I disagree that it's stupid. You might disagree with the course of action taken in the end, but it's far from stupid. Left to evolve without interference from the Enterprise, the other species would eventually be the dominant species.

I really appreciate the pro-evolution stance Trek takes.
__________________
See, the problem is that you are using your cards to show me what cards you have, and if you can't see that this is viciously circular, then there is no point in continuing
Flying Spaghetti Monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2013, 10:03 PM   #48
TiberiusMaximus
Fleet Captain
 
TiberiusMaximus's Avatar
 
Location: A ship, a living ship, full of strange alien lifeforms.
Re: most "wrong" episode...

I'd say there's a difference. Tuvix wasn't some random crewmember; he only existed because of the loss of Tuvok and Neelix, because he's using their bodies/molecules/lives to exist. So I can see the argument that once Tuvok and Neelix can be restored, they are entitled to get their bodies/molecules/lives back, and Tuvix is not entitled to keep the bodies/molecules/lives of those two innocent people, even to preserve his own life.
That argument might hold water if Tuvix had been a malevolent parasitic alien who forcefully and intentionally stole their bodies. But that's not what Tuvix was. He didn't choose to take their bodies or to be created. The very fact that he was alive meant he had a right to be. Killing him to restore Tuvok and Neelix was in effect punishing him for the crime of...wait for it...existing.

"Dear Doctor" is ridiculous and stupid. I can't even go there.

"For The Uniform" is a strange one. Personally, I choose to think Sisko intentionally created a situation where the human and Cardassian colonies had to trade places which is somehow better for everybody. But that's just the head-canon I came up with in an attempt to justify the weirdness of Sisko's actions.

I liked Dear Doctor...because I don't mind the controversy.
The problem isn't controversy, the problem is that the view presented in the episode as praiseworthy are just plain wrong.

"In The Pale Moonlight" is a bit different. "Dear Doctor" presents an ethically wrong and morally disturbing attitude as the objective truth and then pats itself on the back. ITPM doesn't do that.
__________________
"Quite possibly, the five Jem'Hadar could turn Data into a collection of four spasming limbs, one helpless torso, and one head that shouts insults at them like the Black Knight from the Monty Python sketch." -Timo Saloniemi
TiberiusMaximus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2013, 10:07 PM   #49
plynch
Commodore
 
plynch's Avatar
 
Location: Outer Graceland
View plynch's Twitter Profile
Re: most "wrong" episode...

Re. Tuvix:
After they're gone in the transporter accident, Tuvok and Neelix do not exist, even if they might be recreated. Things that don't presently exist do not exist, and have no rights.

And let me add:
Re. Kirk and messing with happy cultures, yes that bugs me, but usually th Enterprise is in danger (Apple, Armageddon). The one that really bugs me is This Side of Paradise.
__________________
Author of Live Like Louis! Inspirational Stories from the Life of Louis Armstrong, http://livelikelouis.com
plynch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2013, 10:07 PM   #50
Arpy
Rear Admiral
 
Re: most "wrong" episode...

Here's the thing. Evolution doesn't work that way. It isn't predestined. It's just a process of cause and effect. The fact of the matter is that they were there and could have helped but chose not to. We evolved too. We have a responsibility to act when we can to help. They raised their hands up and bestowed upon evolution a mystical pre-determination as though it were a god unfolding a higher plan.

Last edited by Arpy; January 18 2013 at 04:30 AM.
Arpy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2013, 10:27 PM   #51
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: most "wrong" episode...

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
I liked Dear Doctor ...because I don't mind the controversy.
I just can't stand the stupidity that the episode expects us to buy.
I disagree that it's stupid. You might disagree with the course of action taken in the end, but it's far from stupid. Left to evolve without interference from the Enterprise, the other species would eventually be the dominant species.

I really appreciate the pro-evolution stance Trek takes.
Pro-evolution? The science presented in the episode is non-sensical and it completely discounts the fact that the Valakians evolved enough to ask for help and that the Menk looked to be evolving just fine even with the Valakian presence.

Then it pats itself on the back for being "bold".
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2013, 10:27 PM   #52
Flying Spaghetti Monster
Vice Admiral
 
Flying Spaghetti Monster's Avatar
 
Location: Flying Spaghetti Western
Re: most "wrong" episode...

Arpy wrote: View Post
Here's the thing. Evolution doesn't work that way. It isn't predestined. It's just a process if cause and effect. The fact if the matter us that they were there and could have helped but chose not to. We evolved too. We gave a responsibility to act when we can to help. They raised their hands up and bestowed upon evolution a mystical pre-determination as though it were a god unfolding a higher plan.
I'm not saying I agree, but there is a case to be made, and some well-known atheists have made it, that there is no freewill, and that everything is predestined.

But, more to the point, I can see the prime directove (in this case, before it was actually a directive) intent on keeping us out of the natural evolution that would haev happened, just as it did for the death of a species in Homeward.

We don't have to agree with the ultimate decision in Dear Doctor, but that doesn't make it stupid. It would have been stupid if both Archer and Phlox didn't think carefully about the decision, and moved on, but the whole episode was about a careful consideration about the meaning and implications of interference.


The point of the Prime Directive, the thing that makes it interesting for dramatic storytelling, is that you are supposed to remove empathy and emotion from the situations in which it would apply. Think about that.
__________________
See, the problem is that you are using your cards to show me what cards you have, and if you can't see that this is viciously circular, then there is no point in continuing
Flying Spaghetti Monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2013, 10:29 PM   #53
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: most "wrong" episode...

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post

The point of the Prime Directive, the thing that makes it interesting for dramatic storytelling, is that you are supposed to remove empathy and emotion from the situations in which it would apply. Think about that.
Don't forget that it also removes common-sense from the equation as well.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2013, 10:39 PM   #54
Nightdiamond
Fleet Captain
 
Nightdiamond's Avatar
 
Location: California
Re: most "wrong" episode...

Tos is a huge offender. Like as stated before Turnabaout Intruder, women still aren't allowed to be starship captains, at least in the human world.

No explanation for it.

Another is "That Which Survives" where Sulu says "I don't want to have shoot a woman!"

Technically it sounds moral, but comes off really odd and sexist. Or pretty funny. As if it's more ok to shoot anything else,

Another is when someone does something horrible, and later the crew or captain lets the offender go and even helps them.

Another is where a bunch of mean aliens turn two crewmen into cubes, and then crushes one to powder (the female crewmen), and then restores the other, just to show their power.

Later Kirk escapes from them, calls a truce, gives them aid, calls them friend and sets course back for home without any mention of bringing the aliens up on charges.
Nightdiamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2013, 10:43 PM   #55
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: most "wrong" episode...

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Later Kirk escapes from them, calls a truce, gives them aid, calls them friend and sets course back for home without any mention of bringing the aliens up on charges.
You seem to forget the Kelvans still have an impressive tech edge over the Federation. I doubt the Federation could really keep them locked up if it came right down to it.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2013, 10:44 PM   #56
Flying Spaghetti Monster
Vice Admiral
 
Flying Spaghetti Monster's Avatar
 
Location: Flying Spaghetti Western
Re: most "wrong" episode...

Another is where a bunch of mean aliens turn two crewmen into cubes, and then crushes one to powder (the female crewmen), and then restores the other, just to show their power.

Later Kirk escapes from them, calls a truce, gives them aid, calls them friend and sets course back for home without any mention of bringing the aliens up on charges.
If he hadn't done this, they would crushed the entire crew.

And, one could also say that, in the episode Kirk and his rew taught them about the vulnerabilities of humanity, and that if they had known that before, they might not have done what they did.

Sure everyone agrees that killing the female redshirt was wrong,but you can't impose consequences as normal to this race. I kind of compare it to the way Picard had no way to adequately punish Kevin Uxbridge in "The Survivors."
__________________
See, the problem is that you are using your cards to show me what cards you have, and if you can't see that this is viciously circular, then there is no point in continuing
Flying Spaghetti Monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2013, 10:49 PM   #57
Arpy
Rear Admiral
 
Re: most "wrong" episode...

I'm an atheist. And I can argue that it's all part of some massive equation and that free will is an illusion. One can imagine one has it like one can imagine running faster than the speed of light, but that isn't how the universe works.

But that still doesn't negate our ability and responsibility to act when we can...it doesn't mean we can throw a spiritual tantrum and not interact with our environment thinking that that puts us above it in some way. Heck, it sounds more like a form of depression: where one isolates oneself overwhelmed by the situation and does nothing till they feel comfortable again.

...Hope it doesn't sound like I'm attacking you, just the episode/its ideas. Gotta go!
Arpy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2013, 10:53 PM   #58
Flying Spaghetti Monster
Vice Admiral
 
Flying Spaghetti Monster's Avatar
 
Location: Flying Spaghetti Western
Re: most "wrong" episode...

Arpy wrote: View Post
I'm an atheist. And I can argue that it's all part of some massive equation and that free will is an illusion. One can imagine one has it like one can imagine running faster than the speed of light, but that isn't how the universe works.

But that still doesn't negate our ability and responsibility to act when we can...it doesn't mean we can throw a spiritual tantrum and not interact with our environment thinking that that puts us above it in some way. Heck, it sounds more like a form of depression: where one isolates oneself overwhelmed by the situation and does nothing till they feel comfortable again.

...Hope it doesn't sound like I'm attacking you, just the episode/its ideas. Gotta go!
That's why I liked the episode, because it dared to rub us all the wrong way. Isn't that what some good fiction is supposed to do, to instigate conversation?
__________________
See, the problem is that you are using your cards to show me what cards you have, and if you can't see that this is viciously circular, then there is no point in continuing
Flying Spaghetti Monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2013, 11:04 PM   #59
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: most "wrong" episode...

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
That's why I liked the episode, because it dared to rub us all the wrong way. Isn't that what some good fiction is supposed to do, to instigate conversation?
It's not that it dared to rub us the wrong way, it's the way it posited the dilemma.

Phlox says the Valakians are holding the Menk back from evolving. Yet we see a group that has it's own spoken language and is smart enough to work in hospitals of all places.

Phlox is simply wrong. These aren't the people on the cusp of an awakening, they are already there. Something he says won't happen for another thousand years, if ever. But he expects Archer to to allow billions to die on a possibility. Then he signs off on giving the Valakians something to control the symptoms for another ten years or so. Which makes no sense.

It's almost like they had two separate scripts that they tried to mash together and failed miserably.

Then you have no thought given to the possibility that the Valakian presence was the very thing driving the Menk to sentience. No thought given to the horrors the Menk would face when the Valakians die out.

Terrible, terrible episode. Andre Bormanis should've been fired if he thought that script passed scientific muster.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2013, 11:14 PM   #60
Flying Spaghetti Monster
Vice Admiral
 
Flying Spaghetti Monster's Avatar
 
Location: Flying Spaghetti Western
Re: most "wrong" episode...

Let's say you're right, that Phlox was wrong. Our hero characters don't have to be right for an episode to be good. They don't to be right on the science.
__________________
See, the problem is that you are using your cards to show me what cards you have, and if you can't see that this is viciously circular, then there is no point in continuing
Flying Spaghetti Monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:34 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.