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Old January 15 2013, 05:03 PM   #31
sonak
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

magarity wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Also have to go with "Dear Doctor." A truly repellent episode that uses racist pseudoscience to justify passive genocide. That's the episode that needs to be stricken from canon.
Several people have mentioned this episode but sorry I have the worst memory for titles. What was that one about?

a first season ENT episode where the crew comes to a planet with two races, the Valakians and the Menk, living together. One of the races is dying of a plague, and even though Phlox discovers a cure, he and Archer agree to withhold it on the basis of Phlox' devotion to racist pseudoscientific mysticism about the belief that the race not stricken by the plague was "destined by evolution" to be the superior race and inherit that planet, and that he can't interfere with that process.

It's an episode that draws heavily from discredited 19th and early 20th century conceptions of racial Social Darwinism and Eugenics. If the writers had bothered to do an hour's worth of internet research, they'd understand how wrong their understanding of evolution was.


The idea was also to show the "wisdom" of the Prime Directive before it was put in place, but it failed utterly on that, too.
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Old January 15 2013, 05:36 PM   #32
The Wormhole
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
The only time I ever saw it was when it premiered. I don't remember anything about it, other than I seem to think favorably about it. Of course, it's possible that was due solely to Billingsley performance and not the content.
That's pretty much it, Billingsley delivers a solid performance in it and it's a pretty good character piece about Phlox.
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Old January 15 2013, 05:44 PM   #33
Wintertainment
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

that voyager episode where neelix's even more annoying friend turns up and they get a slap of the wrist for selling bioweapons. or was it drug dealing, i forget.

though i think the dodgy morality bothers me less than having two talaxians onscreen.
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Old January 16 2013, 04:52 AM   #34
Santa Kang
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

mos6507 wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Not sure you can come back from being blobs.
Why come back? They probably had the most memorable death you could ask for from minor characters. Mission accomplished.
Have you followed the thread at all?
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Old January 16 2013, 05:14 PM   #35
BillJ
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

Xhiandra wrote: View Post

In the Pale Moonlight is a very good episode, but its ethics are wrong on more than the "means justify the ends" angle they went with: said "ends" aren't so noble to begin with.
I mean, sure, as viewers, we can agree that Romulan involvement in the war was in everyone's interests and Sisko is clearly convinced of it as well... but if you examine it critically, is it so obvious? And even if it is, who's Sisko to forego the Romulan right to self-determination?
If the other Alpha Quadrant powers fall, the Romulans essentially lose that right to self-determination. Becoming a Dominion pawn much like the Cardassians did.

They even saw the writing on the wall but allowed distrust to color their judgement.
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Old January 16 2013, 05:57 PM   #36
Brannigan
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

To me there are a few TOS episodes. Omega Glory comes to mind. The savage "Yangs" (who are white) that love freedom and the "Kohms" (of Asian descent) are oppressed. Great racist undertones and symbolism Roddenberry (as I think he wrote this one).
There are some others like Patterns of Force that seem to play as a joke on the Nazi manifesto. Others were Kirk "frees" a society by destroying their leader (the Apple for example). The message in the latter seems to be "to be happy one must be free" overlooking the fact that what humans consider "happy" or "free" is not what other races or aliens might agree.
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Old January 16 2013, 07:37 PM   #37
BillJ
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

Brannigan wrote: View Post
To me there are a few TOS episodes. Omega Glory comes to mind. The savage "Yangs" (who are white) that love freedom and the "Kohms" (of Asian descent) are oppressed.
I'm not sure that was the intent, more about giving the audience something they easily recognize.
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Old January 17 2013, 12:48 AM   #38
JirinPanthosa
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

Turnabout Intruder

"They'll never let you command a ship in this condition!" (In female body)
"She couldn't be happy being...only a woman."

There was also that one with Zefram Cochrane where they determined the entity was female by its 'feminine' behavior patterns, to which Cochrane was horrified. That was just plain stupid.

Also, TNG - The Host. DS9 made the Trill into an equal relationship between host and symbiant, but in The Host is was blatantly slavery.

In The Pale Moonlight is an interesting conversation. By Star Trek morality it's obviously wrong. But it also saved about a trillion lives and preserved the entire Federation way of life.

If you found out tomorrow that the Pearl Harbor attack was actually carried out by England in order to get the US into the war, how would you feel about that? (What if you were Jewish?)
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Old January 17 2013, 12:58 AM   #39
R. Star
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Turnabout Intruder

"They'll never let you command a ship in this condition!" (In female body)
"She couldn't be happy being...only a woman."

There was also that one with Zefram Cochrane where they determined the entity was female by its 'feminine' behavior patterns, to which Cochrane was horrified. That was just plain stupid.

Also, TNG - The Host. DS9 made the Trill into an equal relationship between host and symbiant, but in The Host is was blatantly slavery.

In The Pale Moonlight is an interesting conversation. By Star Trek morality it's obviously wrong. But it also saved about a trillion lives and preserved the entire Federation way of life.

If you found out tomorrow that the Pearl Harbor attack was actually carried out by England in order to get the US into the war, how would you feel about that? (What if you were Jewish?)
Well the Host/DS9 Trill dependency is usually explained away by Riker not being Trill and therefore can't fully bond with the symbiont.

As for your Pearl Harbor scenario? As incredible a false flag operation as that would've been, my first response would be I'd want to go after the people who did that. That WW2 beat Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Imperial Japan is rather moot if it was British duplicity who killed over 2000 Americans and led the US to war. I'm sure if the Romulans ever found out the Federation assassinated Vreenak they'd go to war for sure. That makes them responsible, at least in part, for every Romulan who died in that war.

Is it a means justify the ends scenario? Sure... that doesn't mean there won't be hell to pay if it's ever uncovered.
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Old January 17 2013, 07:11 AM   #40
commanderkai
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

For one of my personal most "wrong" episodes, is For the Uniform in Deep Space 9. To summarize

Sisko: I'm pissed! Eddington embarrassed me!

Dax: Oh my, Eddington just announced he has WMDs, and he threatened to use them on Cardassian colonies!

Sisko: WHAT? We better go after him!

*Some time passes*

Eddington: See Captain, just leave the Marquis alone, you're coming after me because I hurt your feelings. You're being like this antagonist in this book I enjoy.

Sisko: Oh, I know how to catch Eddington. I'll be the bad guy! Worf! Prepare a WMD for a Maquis colony!

Whole Crew: Eh, Captain....aren't you a bit out of con-

Sisko: Shut up and fire!

*Maquis colony is just gassed by a Starfleet officer*

Eddington: Jeez, I'm supposed to be the terrorist Maquis, you're the Starfleet officer, who's supposed to uphold the morals of the Federation. Didn't you just have Worf almost extradited to the Klingons after he was accused of blowing up a civilian ship during the heat of battle?

Worf: Yeah, something about losing battles and even our lives to keep innocent civilian lives out of harm, rig-

Sisko: The continuity levels for this episode have been reached by having a Maquis plot! Now surrender, or we'll keep doing this.

Eddington: Sigh, fine. You win.

*Back on DS9*

Dax: You didn't get approval for your whole gassing a colony plan, did you?

Sisko: I knew I forgot something...Psh, they're only Maquis.

*Episode Ends*
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Old January 17 2013, 07:48 PM   #41
Theodore Jay Miller
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

BruntFCA wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
BruntFCA wrote: View Post
By murdering an innocent man.
So Neelix and Tuvok don't deserve to live?
That wasn't up to Janeway, or at least it shouldn't have been. What Janeway did in this episode as far as I'm concerned is just as bad as if she had killed a random crew member in Phage to give Neelix new lungs.
I'd say there's a difference. Tuvix wasn't some random crewmember; he only existed because of the loss of Tuvok and Neelix, because he's using their bodies/molecules/lives to exist. So I can see the argument that once Tuvok and Neelix can be restored, they are entitled to get their bodies/molecules/lives back, and Tuvix is not entitled to keep the bodies/molecules/lives of those two innocent people, even to preserve his own life.
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Old January 17 2013, 08:11 PM   #42
Arpy
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

Jesus I just watched ENT's "Dear Doctor" for the first time since it premiered and it made me sick. I've always liked the Prime Directive but applied in places like this and in TNG's "Homebound" it's a nightmare.

I wish Trek did an episode showing the downside of them actually helping either people. "Space Hitler" may arise one day from their planet? How is it less likely Space Hitler won't be overthrown one day by their planet?

It's one thing for thing to not interfere with a country/planet because you'll fuck things up or because it's none of your business, but it's also a thing to fuck things up by not interfering or pretending it's none of your business. The Prime Directive is supposed to be the product of a more sophisticated society, not a less one.
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Old January 17 2013, 08:15 PM   #43
BillJ
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

Arpy wrote: View Post
Jesus I just watched ENT's "Dear Doctor" for the first time since it premiered and it made me sick. I've always liked the Prime Directive but applied in places like this and in TNG's "Homebound" it's a nightmare.
I always found Dear Doctor offensive and incredibly short-sighted.
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Old January 17 2013, 09:25 PM   #44
R. Star
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

commanderkai wrote: View Post
For one of my personal most "wrong" episodes, is For the Uniform in Deep Space 9. To summarize

Sisko: I'm pissed! Eddington embarrassed me!

Dax: Oh my, Eddington just announced he has WMDs, and he threatened to use them on Cardassian colonies!

Sisko: WHAT? We better go after him!

*Some time passes*

Eddington: See Captain, just leave the Marquis alone, you're coming after me because I hurt your feelings. You're being like this antagonist in this book I enjoy.

Sisko: Oh, I know how to catch Eddington. I'll be the bad guy! Worf! Prepare a WMD for a Maquis colony!

Whole Crew: Eh, Captain....aren't you a bit out of con-

Sisko: Shut up and fire!

*Maquis colony is just gassed by a Starfleet officer*

Eddington: Jeez, I'm supposed to be the terrorist Maquis, you're the Starfleet officer, who's supposed to uphold the morals of the Federation. Didn't you just have Worf almost extradited to the Klingons after he was accused of blowing up a civilian ship during the heat of battle?

Worf: Yeah, something about losing battles and even our lives to keep innocent civilian lives out of harm, rig-

Sisko: The continuity levels for this episode have been reached by having a Maquis plot! Now surrender, or we'll keep doing this.

Eddington: Sigh, fine. You win.

*Back on DS9*

Dax: You didn't get approval for your whole gassing a colony plan, did you?

Sisko: I knew I forgot something...Psh, they're only Maquis.

*Episode Ends*
Yeah, this was literally the equivalent of a US navy captain ordering a nerve gas attack on an Arabian village suspected of holding an Al-Qaida cell. Sisko should've been sharing a cell with Eddington. You know something is wrong with your order when, Worf, the most trigger happy guy in the Trek franchise, questions your order to fire.
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Old January 17 2013, 09:45 PM   #45
Flying Spaghetti Monster
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Re: most "wrong" episode...

I liked Dear Doctor and For the Uniform because I don't mind the controversy.

I just can't stand Profit and Lace...
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