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Old January 14 2013, 11:06 PM   #76
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Thanks Mytran, again. Here is the Engineering Deck 12 commentary

Part II:

Before I get to the EPS relay chamber now relocated on E-Deck 12, I’d like to take a deeper look at the Enterprise’s matter-antimatter reactors, but you may of course feel free to fast forward to the bottom.

Three matter-antimatter reactors aboard USS Enterprise according to TOS

According to blssdwlf’s exemplary extrapolation and according to “Catspaw” the Enterprise apparently has three M-AM reactors, one in each of the warp nacelles and one in the engineering hull, which is probably “reactor number three” where Spock located the alien entity in “Day of the Dove”.

The strongest evidence for this third M-AM reactor (i.e. one that's not part of the nacelles) came from “That Which Survives”: “Watkins must've been murdered. I sent him in to check the matter-antimatter reactor.” (Scotty)

In this episode the A.I. Losira sabotages the reactor controls, thus antimatter from the antimatter pod streams into the reactor and apparently the fail-safe mechanisms of the Enterprise automatically inject matter into the reactor. This results in an overabundant output of warp drive energy channeled to the nacelles, which needs to be stopped before the overload is tearing the nacelles and the ship apart: “It's a power surge. I'm working on it. Reduce speed until I locate the trouble.” ... “The engines are running wild. There's no way to get at them. We should reach maximum overload in about fifteen minutes.” (Scotty)

One option is to jettison the “(antimatter) pod” to stop the antimatter input and apparently the service crawlway with Scotty would be jettisoned as well: “Please do not take your eyes off of it. Lieutenant Rahda, arm the pod jettison system.” (Spock) “Aye, sir. I'll jettison the pod at the first sign of trouble.” (Lt. Rahda)

As we learned earlier in this episode the crawlway is close to the matter-antimatter reactor: “As I recall the pattern of our fuel flow, there is an access tube leading to the matter-antimatter reaction chamber.” (Spock)
”There's a service crawlway, but it's not meant to be used while the integrator operates.” (Scotty)

Fortunately Spock only “recalls”, i.e. (vaguely) remembers that the access tube leads to the reaction chamber, but apparently that isn’t the case: Only Scotty in the crawlway and the antimatter pod would have been jettisoned, not necessarily the entire reactor (though I have no doubt that were possible, should containment of the reactor chamber ever fail).

I further believe this antimatter pod to be a unique design addition (Lawrence Marvick?) to the 17th cruiser design like the Enterprise and her sister ships, as the USS Constellation (“The Doomsday-Machine”) probably didn’t have (yet) such an extra antimatter pod: “We made a complete check on structural and control damage, sir. As far as we can tell, something crashed through the deflectors and knocked out the generators. Somehow the antimatter in the warp drive pods has been deactivated.” (Washburn)

Obviously Washburn refers to the antimatter pods in the nacelles or the antimatter stored in the warp drive “pods” (nacelles).

If there were a third antimatter pod in the Constellation’s engineering hull, it would be odd that he failed to report its condition (equally rendered inert?).

Alternately there may have been a reactor inside the Constellation that drew exclusively antimatter from the nacelles, but – of course – couldn’t be put to use because its fuel had been “deactivated”. In the light of Scotty’s first assessment (nacelle caps gone, warp engine function theoretically possible, condition of antimatter unknown) this appears to be the case.

The enigmatic “energizers” – energize what?

I’m currently (only) aware of two circumstances where the Enterprise’s “energizers” were knocked out during a space battle and explicitly mentioned as such:

1. Khan’s sneak attack on Spock’s Enterprise in TWOK apparently targeted these important components (Scotty: “Main energizers out!”) and thus deprived the Enterprise of her warp and shield power.
2. Previously, the TOS Enterprise’s energizers were knocked out during the battle with the planet killer in “The Doomsday Machine”:

"Sir, deflector shields are gone." (Spock to Decker)
Palmer to Spock: "Sir, Deck seven reports power failure in main energizers. Implementing emergency procedures. Severe casualties reported on decks three and four. Damage control party sealing off inner hull rupture."
Spock: "It has ceased fire. We're being held in a tractor beam. We're being pulled inside, Commodore. You must veer off."
Decker: "Maintain phaser fire, helmsman."
Spock: "We have lost warp power. If we don't break the tractor beam within sixty seconds, we never will."

Apparently the main energizers are located in or near Deck 7 (Engineering Control Room on Main Deck 7 or E-Deck 7, provided that Main Deck 7 already has a nickname?), their failure subsequently resulted in the loss of the deflector shields and warp power and instant phaser energy (opposite to slowly “charging” the phaser banks).

IMHO, the energizers' failure let to a momentarily shutdown of one or all of the matter-antimatter reactors as it is their energy output that enables deflector shields, warp power and instant phaser fire (though, oddly, in “Elaan of Troyius” the dilithium crystal converter assembly had been sabotaged and no phaser energy at all was available but power for the deflectors ).

The energizers therefore play an important role in the ship’s power infrastructure, but which one exactly?

The term “energizer” itself is rather general and vague and the TOS scriptwriters were most definitely not inspired by our famous Energizer Batteries, because this brand name was not established before 1980 (of course, we can’t exclude the possibility that Energizer Holdings will continue to flourish until the 23rd Century by which time “energizer” has become the colloquial term for any kind of battery - especially since according to “Mudd’s Women” it’s possible to “energize” in the transporter room by means of the ship’s reserve and battery power).

Looking for an analogy we all know that battery power is essential to start the combustion engine in our automobiles and it could appear that the “energizers” aboard a starship essentially perform the same function. As to their appearance I assume these to look like these giant GNDN (“Goes Nowhere, Does Nothing”) props we’ve seen so often and differently aligned in the TOS engine rooms. I’d like to believe these to be fusion reactors and a cut scene from “The Enemy Within” (Contributors Part 1) shows two engineering crewmen with portable radiation counters – something you’d expect to see in the vicinity of reactors.

Some time ago I mentioned that I believe those wall elements seen in “In A Mirror, Darkly” to be TOS next generation (i.e. Defiant style) energizers. In the new draft of E-Deck 12 these not only provide “battery power” to the transporters (on E-Deck 14 if necessary) but also heat up the antimatter (You can’t mix matter and antimatter cold according to Scotty in “The Naked Time”) and help start the matter-antimatter reactors aboard a starship and continue to assist the matter-antimatter reactor/s during operation.

While the (old TOS style) EPS relay chamber aboard the Enterprise would look somewhat differently, the screencap from the ENT episode “In A Mirror, Darkly” conveys the basic idea: The energizers / fusion reactors seen here channel the fusion plasma into distribution conduits on the floor (apparently with some noticeable and typical blue Cherenkov radiation glow we usually notice in offline warp plasma conduits like “The Tholian Web”

The “Primary EPS relays” seem to function as fuses or spark plugs to “ignite” the matter-antimatter reactor and spur it into action. The events depicted in this ENT episode seem to support the theory:

Plugged back into their assembly sockets the primary EPS relays immediately enabled the USS Defiant to raise deflector shields and to instantly open phaser fire at the mirror universe USS Avenger.

Although I’m not a friend of retcon maneuvers, this particular one did help me to understand a possible working principle that previously had remained largely unaddressed, IMHO.

Please feel free to add comments or issues I may have overlooked.

Bob
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; January 14 2013 at 11:17 PM.
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Old January 15 2013, 03:30 AM   #77
blssdwlf
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Regarding "energizers", they're likely anything that provides energy to any shipboard system. In the modern navy and industrial terminology, "energizing" or to "energize" equipment means to power equipment with electricity.

The Enterprise has been referred to having "main energizers" and what I would imagine as some kind emergency or auxiliary energizers (aka "auxiliary power" as Saavik switches to that after losing the main energizer during a simulation in ST2.)

I don't believe the energizers would be directly used to heat up antimatter though. Instead the energizers would energize the antimatter thermal regulators YMMV.
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Old January 15 2013, 10:33 AM   #78
Mytran
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Shot 19 of the website you linked to http://startrekhistory.com/contributors.html not only shows the radiation counters, but the full ceiling of the Engine Room as well!
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Old January 15 2013, 12:18 PM   #79
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"Regarding "energizers", they're likely anything that provides energy to any shipboard system. In the modern navy and industrial terminology, "energizing" or to "energize" equipment means to power equipment with electricity."
In TOS the deflector shield generators appear definitely to be such equipment. In the "Doomsday-Machine" Spock reports the loss of deflector shields (there seems to be a distinction between the main deflector keeping space debris out of the ship's flight path and individual shields that protect certain sections of the ship) and the next moment Lt. Palmer, apparently, tells the reason (power failure in main energizers).
Combined with the information from "Elaan of Troyius" it would appear that deflector shield power doesn't necessarily require energy from a M-AM reactor.

Following the scene there is another hit on the Enterprise. Whether the loss of warp and instant phaser power is due to this hit or the aforementioned main energizer power failure could be debated, but I think that power loss is also due to the main energizer power failure.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"The Enterprise has been referred to having "main energizers" and what I would imagine as some kind emergency or auxiliary energizers (aka "auxiliary power" as Saavik switches to that after losing the main energizer during a simulation in ST2.)"
I presume the output of these energizers to be this enigmatic "battery", "reserve" or "auxilary" power but that doesn't mean that the energizers' output is only limited to 'secondary' energy.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"I don't believe the energizers would be directly used to heat up antimatter though. Instead the energizers would energize the antimatter thermal regulators YMMV."
If the energizers are fusion reactors whose plasma (several million degrees hot) is used straight as the matter fuel for the M-AM reactor, there wouldn't be the need to heat up the matter reactants.
With the antimatter that would be a different issue and the unanswered question - that's bugging me for a long time - is, whether you couldn't preheat antimatter by simply putting it into a fusion reactor, too (add to this you'd probably get some extra antimatter fusion energy output in the process).

Bob

P.S. @ Mytran

The Season One engine room ceiling was another reason why I felt this cut scene shot was definitely worth mentioning.
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Old January 15 2013, 02:22 PM   #80
blssdwlf
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

IMHO, any power source individually or in combination ( charged crystal power, M/AM direct via bypass, auxiliary power, and emergency battery power ) could be used to operate any machinery like the warp or impulse engines, energize the transporters, fire the phasers and power the shields.

The "main" energizers would be where the crystals are as they would handle all the high-powered energy transfer while the auxiliary or emergency energizers would lack the extra buffering and load capacity of the "mains". YMMV
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Old January 15 2013, 03:52 PM   #81
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"The "main" energizers would be where the crystals are as they would handle all the high-powered energy transfer while the auxiliary or emergency energizers would lack the extra buffering and load capacity of the "mains"."
I'm aware of your theory but find myself unable to concur:

SCOTT: I've got bad news, Captain. The entire dilithium crystal converter assembly is fused. No chance of repair. It's completely unusable.
KIRK: No chance of restoring warp drive?
SCOTT: Not without dilithium crystals. We can't even generate enough power to fire our weapons.

SCOTT: Our shields will hold for a few passes, but without the matter-antimatter reactor, we've no chance.

These lines from "Elaan of Troyius" suggest that you can have deflector shields, capable of withstanding Klingon disruptor blasts, whose energy either comes from the matter-antimatter reactor together with the dilithium crystals ("warp power to the shields") or from the main energizers.

The odd thing is that Scotty feels unable to generate phaser power, as he apparently was capable to "charge" the phaser bank of the Constellation without the availability of "warp power" (or he is just being insubordinate, feeling that deflector shield power has priority over phaser capability ).

Bob
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Old January 15 2013, 04:22 PM   #82
Just a Bill
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
Shot 19 of the website you linked to http://startrekhistory.com/contributors.html not only shows the radiation counters, but the full ceiling of the Engine Room as well!
Too cool. It's a shame we never saw that detail on screen.
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Old January 16 2013, 02:05 AM   #83
blssdwlf
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

@Bob - I'm not sure where the disagreement is. The dialogue you quote doesn't change my statement above as the auxiliary power systems are powering the shields. Perhaps we have a different definition of "high-powered energy transfer"?

As to the battle in "Elaan of Troyius" let's look at several things at the same time:

Enterprise's shields are pretty strong, especially by episode 37.
  • In episode 9 "Balance of Terror", at warp speed her shields were barely able to hold off a weakened Romulan Plasma torpedo.
  • In episode 37 "The Changeling", her shields at both warp (first 4 hits) and impulse (the last hit) could hold off the equivalent of 90 of her own torpedoes for each hit for a total of 450 torpedoes.
  • In episode 40 "The Deadly Years", at warp speed her shields were holding off multiple Romulan Plasma torpedoes and another type of torpedo.

So by episode 57, "Elaan of Troyius", even with only impulse power, I would expect the Enterprise's shields would "hold for a few passes" (like three as seen in the episode).

The other thing about her shields are that they utilize power proportionate to the threat. In other words, they can use up all the power leaving nothing for maneuvering and/or weapons. In "A Taste of Armageddon" the shields used up enough power that the Enterprise could not fire full phasers although photon torpedoes would not be a problem. In "The Tholian Web", Spock allocates power to shields which again limited her ability to fire full phasers. In the extreme case of "Return of the Archons", the shields used up so much power that there was none left for impulse or warp and the ship was in danger of falling out of orbit.

In "Elaan of Troyius", when Scotty says they can't generate enough power to fire their weapons it would be consistent with what we've seen since the shields would be taking enough power to ward of the Klingon Battlecruiser's disruptors leaving little for impulse maneuvering. Contrast this with "The Doomsday Machine" where they have some impulse maneuvering power and were able to charge a phaser bank but *did not* have any shields up. Could the Enterprise in "Elaan" fire her phasers (at partial impulse-level power) or photon torpedoes? I would think yes, IF she had her shields down or below the point where they could stop a disruptor hit. But that would've been a short fight!



Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"The "main" energizers would be where the crystals are as they would handle all the high-powered energy transfer while the auxiliary or emergency energizers would lack the extra buffering and load capacity of the "mains"."
I'm aware of your theory but find myself unable to concur:

SCOTT: I've got bad news, Captain. The entire dilithium crystal converter assembly is fused. No chance of repair. It's completely unusable.
KIRK: No chance of restoring warp drive?
SCOTT: Not without dilithium crystals. We can't even generate enough power to fire our weapons.

SCOTT: Our shields will hold for a few passes, but without the matter-antimatter reactor, we've no chance.

These lines from "Elaan of Troyius" suggest that you can have deflector shields, capable of withstanding Klingon disruptor blasts, whose energy either comes from the matter-antimatter reactor together with the dilithium crystals ("warp power to the shields") or from the main energizers.

The odd thing is that Scotty feels unable to generate phaser power, as he apparently was capable to "charge" the phaser bank of the Constellation without the availability of "warp power" (or he is just being insubordinate, feeling that deflector shield power has priority over phaser capability ).

Bob
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Old January 16 2013, 03:24 PM   #84
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"I'm not sure where the disagreement is"?
From your thread and various comments on the issue of the "main energizers" I've drawn the conclusion that you assume the dilithium crystal (regeneration) room (i.e. where the crystals are "re-amplified" and/or "re-energized") from "The Alternative Factor" to be essentially the "main energizer" (or a Season One dilithium crystal converter assembly equivalent) through which the matter-antimatter annihilation energy passes to be transformed into energy for the warp drive and other applications.

I definitely don't think that's the case. It's a room where the dilithium crystals relax and regenerate. By closing the drawers (!) Lt. Masters (science division) apparently put the crystals to 'sleep', not to 'work', IMHO.

Just because we didn't see the engine room/s in the engineering hull with the apparent dilithium crystal converter assembly and its casing during Season One, doesn't mean it wasn't there, yet.

Therefore I strongly believe these "main energizers" to be something else. I made a suggestion, though it doesn't necessarily have to be the best one available.

Bob
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Old January 16 2013, 09:14 PM   #85
Potemkin_Prod
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

In TWOK parlance, Kirk orders "Stop energizers." There's another place where Scotty says "The main energizer's been hit." They can no longer warp and can only give Kirk a "few shots" from the phasers. Later, iirc, the "energizers are back on-line" and they can go to warp. I'm not convinced that the energizers have anything to do with the dilithium crystals, and may have something to do with the warp coils or the "space matrix restoration coils" or even the "Chamber's Coil" that Uhura mentions.

Fascinating how all of these things can be interpreted so many different ways by so many different people.
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Old January 17 2013, 03:29 AM   #86
blssdwlf
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"I'm not sure where the disagreement is"?
From your thread and various comments on the issue of the "main energizers" I've drawn the conclusion that you assume the dilithium crystal (regeneration) room (i.e. where the crystals are "re-amplified" and/or "re-energized") from "The Alternative Factor" to be essentially the "main energizer" (or a Season One dilithium crystal converter assembly equivalent) through which the matter-antimatter annihilation energy passes to be transformed into energy for the warp drive and other applications.

I definitely don't think that's the case.
Ohh I see. That makes more sense now as your previous reply didn't mention where we differed.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
It's a room where the dilithium crystals relax and regenerate. By closing the drawers (!) Lt. Masters (science division) apparently put the crystals to 'sleep', not to 'work', IMHO.

Just because we didn't see the engine room/s in the engineering hull with the apparent dilithium crystal converter assembly and its casing during Season One, doesn't mean it wasn't there, yet.
I had thought about that but then I ask:
  1. If that energizer is where the crystals ONLY go to relax and regenerate, then after they were charged back up why were they still there when they were stolen both times considering Kirk needs them to power the ship?
  2. If the ship were in trouble, like in combat, have we seen the crew pull the crystals and run to a separate location to charge them back up and then run them back to the engine room to re-insert them in to make use of them? I'm thinking of "The Tholian Web" where Scotty estimated that he would "have about 80% power built up." But at the time they interphase, they were "only up to 76%" and they went with that. I just don't see crewman running back and forth to plug the crystals back in.
  3. In "Elaan of Troyius", do you think they had to run the crude necklace crystals over to a charging energizer before plugging them in to the crystal converter assembly?
IMHO, whatever energizer the crystals are plugged into should be able to both *charge* and *discharge* the crystals like a lithium-ion battery in a laptop or smartphone. I do believe that the main energizers were upgraded over time in TOS and that there was no separate charging station.


Potemkin_Prod wrote: View Post
In TWOK parlance, Kirk orders "Stop energizers." There's another place where Scotty says "The main energizer's been hit." They can no longer warp and can only give Kirk a "few shots" from the phasers. Later, iirc, the "energizers are back on-line" and they can go to warp. I'm not convinced that the energizers have anything to do with the dilithium crystals, and may have something to do with the warp coils or the "space matrix restoration coils" or even the "Chamber's Coil" that Uhura mentions.
Did you notice that Spock repaired the "mains" while he was inside the dilithium crystal room? That would seem like a pretty direct connection that dilithium crystals and main energizers go together, IMHO.

Potemkin_Prod wrote: View Post
Fascinating how all of these things can be interpreted so many different ways by so many different people.
So true...
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Old January 17 2013, 05:18 AM   #87
Potemkin_Prod
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Potemkin_Prod wrote: View Post
In TWOK parlance, Kirk orders "Stop energizers." There's another place where Scotty says "The main energizer's been hit." They can no longer warp and can only give Kirk a "few shots" from the phasers. Later, iirc, the "energizers are back on-line" and they can go to warp. I'm not convinced that the energizers have anything to do with the dilithium crystals, and may have something to do with the warp coils or the "space matrix restoration coils" or even the "Chamber's Coil" that Uhura mentions.
Did you notice that Spock repaired the "mains" while he was inside the dilithium crystal room? That would seem like a pretty direct connection that dilithium crystals and main energizers go together, IMHO.
Uh, where did anyone name or state that that was the dilithium chamber room (no tech manual references, please). IIRC, we're assuming that.
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Old January 17 2013, 02:32 PM   #88
blssdwlf
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Stated in dialogue, no. Visually, they used a holder for the crystals (the top that Spock lifts off) that contained something reflective inside which in "The Voyage Home" they show us a close-up of a similar looking holder that held the Klingon crystals (which was identified as such in the movie.)

(click to enlarge)
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Old January 17 2013, 05:59 PM   #89
Potemkin_Prod
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

I'm not convinced by that sort of thing. The series and movies reworked items all the time for either similar or completely different purposes. After all the Klingon bridge was reworked into the Enterprise torpedo bay.

Now if Spock had removed a crystal for us to all see, I would say "Yes!" But he didn't. He puts the top back on and the energizers are back on-line. That's the only thing we can assume.

I realize most fans prefer to take Shane Johnson's assertion that that's the "dilithium reactor room" as the gospel, but I choose to remain open-minded if not skeptical about it. Especially since in "Elaan of Troyius," we see Scotty working with the dilithium crystal assembly with his bare hands and no rad suit.

Sorry about taking the thread off topic a bit.
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Old January 17 2013, 06:57 PM   #90
Just a Bill
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Potemkin_Prod wrote: View Post
The series and movies reworked items all the time for either similar or completely different purposes. After all the Klingon bridge was reworked into the Enterprise torpedo bay.
Yeah, how about Nomad, M-4, and the Romulan cloaking device?

Potemkin_Prod wrote: View Post
Spock ... puts the top back on and the energizers are back on-line. That's the only thing we can assume.
...
in "Elaan of Troyius," we see Scotty working with the dilithium crystal assembly with his bare hands and no rad suit.
I have to agree with all that. Probably we'll never have a definitive answer that agrees with everything we've seen on screen, and I must admit I never really understood exactly what Spock was doing, but it certainly didn't seem (to me) to behave like anything related to the dilithium crystals that we ever saw before.
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