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Old January 11 2013, 06:13 PM   #31
RPJOB
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

Timo wrote: View Post
The conquered planets serve the Empire. If they rebell then action would be taken against them.
Yet the thing is, there are no examples of this really happening. Klingon designs on Organia were thwarted. Krios was never indicated to be anything but a Klingon colony. No members of species other than the "one and only" Klingons ever served aboard Klingon ships or installations (evident now that the forehead thing was finally sorted out). Etc.

The Son'a had subjugated races in their servitude. The Grand Nagus had alien servants. Kirk had an alien lackey, Picard had dozens at least. The Klingons? They only ever served each other! And aliens within the Empire only served prison sentences...

Timo Saloniemi
Why would they have their subject races serving on their ships, particularly their warships? Better to keep the trapped on their planets where they can't cause trouble. Even if they served on a freighter would the Klingons trust a subject race with a projectile that could be crashed into a planet at near lightspeed and is loaded with antimatter? Even an unarmed starship is extraordinarily dangerous. Better to have lower ranked Klingons do the hauling and leave the conquered races to do the hewing and farming and mining.

Why did we never see them? Because they live a boring existence.
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Old January 11 2013, 07:33 PM   #32
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

RPJOB wrote: View Post
... if it's just the council or if there's a larger body like the General Assembly of the UN

T'Pau was said to have turned down a seat ...
The way it was said, T'Pau turning down the seat was a unpresidented move. More than her simply being offered the seat and saying no thanks. if only a select few from the general assemblage are offered seat on the upper council, with the original founders having the offer as a given, then T'Pau's refusial to move from the general assemblage up to the upper council might have been shocking. Maybe the only time Vulcan was never on the upper council in the Federation's history.

Timo wrote: View Post
Ardana was already a member; Bajor was undergoing a selection process. Only the latter situation would allow for the sort of blackmail that makes democracy work.
Once Ardana was in, there wouldn't have been much the Federation could do, especially if the individual members are in fact sovereign entities. Ultimately the only thing the Federation could do is expell Ardana. The same thing with Bajor, if admitted with a caste system in place, there's nothing the Federation could do after the admission was a done deal, except expell them.

the general dissatisfaction of the Troglytes in their lot, is also a recent development?
Or only amongst the Disrupter group and their little band of supporters. The Disrupters could be a minority political movement.

the zenite gas exposure and its related woes are new things, too.
Extracting zenite by way of mining using mine shafts might be a new method. If up until resently, zenite was extracted though open pits and strip mining (in the open air) the problem with the gas would not have been a problem.

The Trogs' who work the shafts underground might have been considered by the majority of the above ground Trogs' as the lowest of the low, the dreggs of the larger Trog' society.

zenite is only found on Ardana and nowhere else - yet the Stratosians keep none of the stuff in stock
Perhaps it has a short shelf life. Once out of the ground it "decays."

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Old January 13 2013, 04:16 AM   #33
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

I confess to being puzzled that 23rd Century Ardana is being held against the 24th Century Federation vis a vis Bajor. The entire point of "The Cloud Minders" was that the Federation was going to force Ardana to change, and 103 years passed between TOS Season Three and DSN Season Four. For all we know, the Federation Charter was amended to ban caste-based discrimination precisely because of Ardana.

ETA:

T'Girl wrote: View Post
]
The way it was said, T'Pau turning down the seat was a unpresidented move. More than her simply being offered the seat and saying no thanks. if only a select few from the general assemblage are offered seat on the upper council, with the original founders having the offer as a given, then T'Pau's refusial to move from the general assemblage up to the upper council might have been shocking. Maybe the only time Vulcan was never on the upper council in the Federation's history.
There is no evidence whatsoever that the Federation has a bicameral legislature. Canonically, there is the Federation Council, the Federation President, the Federation Supreme Court, and the President's Cabinet. That's it.

Once Ardana was in, there wouldn't have been much the Federation could do, especially if the individual members are in fact sovereign entities.
Actually, full sovereignty on the part of Federation Members is the only way there could be "not much" the Federation could do. If the Federation itself, however, is the sovereign, then the Federation would have plenty of options for forcing Ardana to change. Just ask the Southern states that were forced to abandon Jim Crow what a federal government can force from its member polities.
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Old January 13 2013, 05:11 AM   #34
Elvira
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

Sci wrote: View Post
The entire point of "The Cloud Minders" was that the Federation was going to force Ardana to change
There's not the slightest suggestion in the episode's dialog
that the Federation was going to force a change.

Kirk mildly offers mediation, nothing more. And that's rebuffed.
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Old January 14 2013, 02:05 PM   #35
USS Einstein
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

Does the Andorian Empire have an emperor in the Federation?

There is a question that might be interesting - if they don't, it might indicate that the Federation imposes it's ideas on member worlds, if they do, it might indicate that the Federation's structure is very loose, and member worlds are allowed to more or less do what they want, short of outright oppression.
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Old January 15 2013, 12:54 PM   #36
George Steinbrenner
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

USS Einstein wrote: View Post
Does the Andorian Empire have an emperor in the Federation?
No.
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Old January 15 2013, 01:06 PM   #37
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

Well, books are non-canon obviously, but nice mention
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Old January 15 2013, 06:44 PM   #38
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

USS Einstein wrote: View Post
Well, books are non-canon obviously, but nice mention
But either way, the books make it clear that the Andorian Empire is a constitutional monarchy where real power falls to the democratically elected Parliament Andoria, which itself elects the head of government, the Presider.

This is broadly consistent with ENT, wherein the Aenar mention having been in contact with the "Andorian Chancellor."

So the Andorian head of government is canonically called a Chancellor in the 22nd Century, and called a Presider in the novels set in the 24th Century. Either way, though, it's just a fancy term for "prime minister;" the Andorian Empire is a constitutional monarchy.
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Old January 16 2013, 12:27 AM   #39
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

^^^ Once the Andorian scientists identified the brain wave pattern, does it make sense that the high mucky mucky of the Andorian State would personally contact a city of two thousand to tell them John and Shran will be paying a visit?

Lissan: "I know your name because the Andorian Chancellor contacted us."

"Andorian Chancellor" would more likely be analogous to a upper level administrator, or maybe a cabinet secretary.

USS Einstein wrote: View Post
Does the Andorian Empire have an emperor in the Federation?
The term "Empire" would suggest a single supreme authority, a emperor, empress or other monarch.

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Old January 16 2013, 02:24 AM   #40
Sci
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
^^^ Once the Andorian scientists identified the brain wave pattern, does it make sense that the high mucky mucky of the Andorian State would personally contact a city of two thousand to tell them John and Shran will be paying a visit?
I think it does. The Aenar weren't part of the Andorian polity; they were a sovereign nation, and since they needed to be contacted in order to resolve an interstellar crisis, it's perfectly plausible that the Andorian head of government may have sent an official communication.
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Old January 18 2013, 05:57 PM   #41
Timo
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

..Or that one was sent in his (?) name, at any rate.

But why are we speaking of an "Andorian Empire" in the first place? No such thing has ever been mentioned in dialogue. And the existence of an "Imperial" Guard hardly need reflect the current state of governmental affairs in the realm, as militaries tend to be bastions of obscure tradition. And the one computer graphic featuring the name is a human one, quite possibly based on fundamental misconceptions rather than any sort of understanding of what Andor or Andoria (or Vulcan or Vulcania) is all about.

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Old January 20 2013, 09:48 PM   #42
Elvira
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

Timo wrote: View Post
But why are we speaking of an "Andorian Empire" in the first place? No such thing has ever been mentioned in dialogue.
It is an extrapolation based on an isolated piece of information true, but this is common in examination of Star Trek. The Andorian military force were call the Imperial Guard on multiple occasions, so it is an indication that the Andorian people do live in an Interstellar Empire, and are the subjects of an Emperor/Empress.

Or as you pointed out, the Imperial Guard might simply be a hold over term, from an earlier age. The Andorian nation's formal title has never been used on screen, what information we do have leans more towards Empire, than away from it.

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