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Old January 14 2013, 05:26 AM   #16
TheRoyalFamily
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Re: Speed of Ferengi cultural change: Believable?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

As said:
How long did it take for the majority of USA's population to reject racism? How many centuries?
1 year is supposed to be believable? Ridiculous.
Once people got the idea that maybe general racism wasn't a good thing? About ten or twenty years. That very idea wasn't exactly new, but it wasn't widely vocalized until the 1950's or '60's - in any part of the world. And in fact, it is still the operating norm in most of the world.


BTW, 1 year is not even close to enough for 'profit' to materialize from women gaining rights:
-in order to buy (creating profit for ferengi business men), one must have money; in order to gain money, one must have a job; in order to have a job, one must have skills useful on the work market - skills which the vast majority of ferengi women lacked.
The Ferengi economy is way different than the world economy today. There is very little actual stuff produced, it seems - they are mostly middlemen of one sort or another, bureaucrats, and service types. They just need the lobes for business.

Again - USA is a good example:
Did the freedom of afro-americans translate into more profit for the former slavers?
And the afro-americans did have useful skills (in agriculture, primarily).
Initially, yes. Any money is more than what they were making, being slaves and all. Things mostly went bad after the Reconstruction, when all sorts of racism was institutionalized by law, instead of just being the default situation (it didn't matter much, not with most of the blacks in the South being slaves and all).
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Old January 14 2013, 04:51 PM   #17
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Speed of Ferengi cultural change: Believable?

TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

As said:
How long did it take for the majority of USA's population to reject racism? How many centuries?
1 year is supposed to be believable? Ridiculous.
Once people got the idea that maybe general racism wasn't a good thing? About ten or twenty years. That very idea wasn't exactly new, but it wasn't widely vocalized until the 1950's or '60's - in any part of the world. And in fact, it is still the operating norm in most of the world.
Really? 1850-60?
That would be 1865 at the very latest (the end of the american civil war).
Of course, influential philosophers have demonstrated the moral bankrupcy of slavery long before that to anyone who cared to look.

BTW, 1 year is not even close to enough for 'profit' to materialize from women gaining rights:
-in order to buy (creating profit for ferengi business men), one must have money; in order to gain money, one must have a job; in order to have a job, one must have skills useful on the work market - skills which the vast majority of ferengi women lacked.
The Ferengi economy is way different than the world economy today. There is very little actual stuff produced, it seems - they are mostly middlemen of one sort or another, bureaucrats, and service types. They just need the lobes for business.
Lobes for business is just a trekkie word for business skills.
And, as any worthwhile skills, business skills are 1% inspiration, 99% teaching/learning and practice. The latter utterly lacking with ferengi females.

Again - USA is a good example:
Did the freedom of afro-americans translate into more profit for the former slavers?
And the afro-americans did have useful skills (in agriculture, primarily).
Initially, yes. Any money is more than what they were making, being slaves and all. Things mostly went bad after the Reconstruction, when all sorts of racism was institutionalized by law, instead of just being the default situation (it didn't matter much, not with most of the blacks in the South being slaves and all).
The profit the ferengi females would be making (which is close to 0) is secondary, when it comes to their acceptance by the rest of society.

What matters is the profit the rest of the ferengi will be making from the liberation of females (which is 0). Indeed, they'll loose money (someone has to pay to support the ferengi females - without claiming them as property/trophies, that is).
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Old January 15 2013, 01:58 AM   #18
TheRoyalFamily
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Re: Speed of Ferengi cultural change: Believable?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

As said:
How long did it take for the majority of USA's population to reject racism? How many centuries?
1 year is supposed to be believable? Ridiculous.
Once people got the idea that maybe general racism wasn't a good thing? About ten or twenty years. That very idea wasn't exactly new, but it wasn't widely vocalized until the 1950's or '60's - in any part of the world. And in fact, it is still the operating norm in most of the world.
Really? 1850-60?
That would be 1865 at the very latest (the end of the american civil war).
Of course, influential philosophers have demonstrated the moral bankrupcy of slavery long before that to anyone who cared to look.
Thinking "Hey, maybe we shouldn't enslave and own people" is is quite different from "Maybe we shouldn't hate on other folks just because they look different/are not from a certain place." Remember, slavery, for a long time, was not racial in any way, besides "not your own people" (and even that was conditional - if you got too far into debt in some societies, you could be sold into slavery to help pay it off).

Lobes for business is just a trekkie word for business skills.
And, as any worthwhile skills, business skills are 1% inspiration, 99% teaching/learning and practice. The latter utterly lacking with ferengi females.
There are more ways to earn money that just owning a business.

And that "1% inspiration" goes a long way - without it, all the education and training in the world won't get you very far in your own business if you don't have the instinct for what people really want, when to take a risk, and when to cut your losses. You have to know management, of money, inventory/workflow, and people, be good at marketing marketing, be able to deal with all the red tape and regulations, and be willing to put in whatever work it takes to make the business work, at least until you're profitable . That's why more than half of all new businesses fail within four years, and most of the rest remain quite small - because owners can't pull all that off. And with the Ferengi, you also have to know how to grease the right palms.

The older women, at least, would have some education - who do you think teaches the children in the family? Certainly it isn't the father, who is out all day making a profit. Some of the more successful dads might take a son under their wing, but not all will be able to do that.

Those problems just aren't for the females; the males have a hard enough time of it as well: how many Ferengi waiters does Quark have? (And he's pretty small time!)

Again - USA is a good example:
Did the freedom of afro-americans translate into more profit for the former slavers?
And the afro-americans did have useful skills (in agriculture, primarily).
Initially, yes. Any money is more than what they were making, being slaves and all. Things mostly went bad after the Reconstruction, when all sorts of racism was institutionalized by law, instead of just being the default situation (it didn't matter much, not with most of the blacks in the South being slaves and all).
The profit the ferengi females would be making (which is close to 0) is secondary, when it comes to their acceptance by the rest of society.
To the Ferengi, 90+% of acceptance in society is how much money you make (indeed, how one makes their money doesn't really seem to matter, in general).

What matters is the profit the rest of the ferengi will be making from the liberation of females (which is 0). Indeed, they'll loose money (someone has to pay to support the ferengi females - without claiming them as property/trophies, that is).
Uh, when you allow 100% more consumers, there's going to be a lot more money floating around out there. Husbands aren't necessarily going to be happy (but are they ever really happy when the wife spends money? ), but they will, in general, have money to spend (they have to keep something in their pockets, right?), either because wives have claim on their husbands for their support, or they steal it from their husbands little by little (Ishka got her money to invest from somewhere), like good Ferengi.

And it's not like females weren't allowed to have money, period. They were just forbidden to make a profit. They even had female-division sports (or at least games).
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Old January 15 2013, 06:43 AM   #19
Edit_XYZ
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Location: At star's end.
Re: Speed of Ferengi cultural change: Believable?

TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post

Once people got the idea that maybe general racism wasn't a good thing? About ten or twenty years. That very idea wasn't exactly new, but it wasn't widely vocalized until the 1950's or '60's - in any part of the world. And in fact, it is still the operating norm in most of the world.
Really? 1850-60?
That would be 1865 at the very latest (the end of the american civil war).
Of course, influential philosophers have demonstrated the moral bankrupcy of slavery long before that to anyone who cared to look.
Thinking "Hey, maybe we shouldn't enslave and own people" is is quite different from "Maybe we shouldn't hate on other folks just because they look different/are not from a certain place."
The ferengi women are de facto house slaves. As such, the relevant period is from slavery to being recognized as equal - as I made clear in my previous posts before your poor attempt to distort the meaning by quoting out of context.

There are more ways to earn money that just owning a business.
Yes - having a job; which also requires skills the ferengi women don't have.

And that "1% inspiration" goes a long way - without it, all the education and training in the world won't get you very far
Without education, all the inspiration in the world is utterly useless.

The older women, at least, would have some education - who do you think teaches the children in the family?
Fabricating 'evidence' with no support is irrelevant as arguments.

To the Ferengi, 90+% of acceptance in society is how much money you make (indeed, how one makes their money doesn't really seem to matter, in general).
Ferengi women don't make money; also, they're pennyless.

Uh, when you allow 100% more consumers, there's going to be a lot more money floating around out there.
As already said:
-in order to buy (creating profit for ferengi business men), one must have money; in order to gain money, one must have a job; in order to have a job, one must have skills useful on the work market - skills which the vast majority of ferengi women lacked.

Husbands aren't necessarily going to be happy (but are they ever really happy when the wife spends money? )[...]
Such fluff can't cover the reality of the depicted situation: these 'wifes' are essentially property, and the overwhelming majority of ferengi strongly believe this is their rightful place.
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