Why Not A Starfleet Ships Chaplain As A Main Character?

[T'Girl]

Timelord_Victorious wrote:

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Though that has nothing to do with my hypothesis, that real world considerations not to alienate a mostly christian audience was in play here.

What was most likely in play here was a realistic depiction of a wedding.

If the main purpose was tie into the religion of the largest group of Christian viewers, why was the bride not written to be Protestant, as opposed to Catholic?

What was shown on screen was a pretty average wedding ceremony. There was some prayer, the official mention faith, and the making of a pledge. Usually the fact that the ceremony is legal is briefly spoken of. There were candles and flowers. And the bride looked lovely.

Is there anybody still alive and capable of answering such a question?

I think Herb Solow is still alive, not sure though.

[Xhiandra]

TREK_GOD_1 wrote:

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It was just as "civil" as one with an agenda making sweeping, insulting generalizations such as Longinus posting:

Funny how you missed that in your defense of any statement about atheist behavior.

But if you were not so woefully one-sided, you would picked up on another of Longinus' insulting, loose-minded posts:

No...you missed that too while playing armchair defender. Not only was the above quote revealing a glaring ignorance of historical record, but lowering said record to that of genuine myth only proves agenda leads his every thought--the very reason he tried to re-script a stated religious belief/practice even in the fictional Star Trek III.

Let's see if you will attempt to spin the quotes as being something other than part of his long list of hostile posts regarding religion.

This should be good.

Ok, first of all, if Longinus is indeed on trial here, he'll have to look elsewhere for a defender, as I am no trained barrister.

Now, as to the quotes:
Quote 1: Well, he wouldn't be a very good atheist if he believed in prayer...

Y'see, one of the corrolaries of disbelieving in an higher power is disbelieving in asking said higher power for intercession.
If you take "being an atheist (and voicing it)" to be an insult, I'm afraid the intolerance ball is in your camp.


Quote 2: What? I don't think anyone still believes* in the classical pantheon and indeed we can recognise them for what they used to symbolise.
I fail to see a nefarious agenda in stating both those facts.
Ok, the first one relies on an assumption, but it's a pretty safe one.


At any rate, I'm not parsing Longinus' posts looking to be offended by such or such statement (why would I?), so maybe I did miss some genuinely abhorrent claims.


*Complete aside: it's arguable that many Romans (at least in the highly educated circles) didn't believe in them either; that they thought of mythology as allegories rather than literal account of godly beings.

[Freman]

Hopefully organized religion has gone the way of the dodo by the 23rd/24th century. We're supposed to evolve, right? Not stay stuck in the dark ages.

[T'Girl]

Xhiandra wrote:

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I don't think anyone still believes* in the classical pantheon

There are communities of neo-pagan revivalists in Greece today, tens of thousands of people at least. Sometimes tied to ultra-nationalist Greek political groups.

Freman wrote:

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Hopefully organized religion has gone the way of the dodo by the 23rd/24th century. We're supposed to evolve, right? Not stay stuck in the dark ages.

Hopefully, in the future we won't be seeing suppression of personal choice, whether you believe in God (or gods), or believe God doesn't exist. You will have the freedom to follow your beliefs.

[Freman]

Nah, I like my way better.

[Timelord_Victorious]

T'Girl wrote:

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There are communities of neo-pagan revivalists in Greece today, tens of thousands of people at least. Sometimes tied to ultra-nationalist Greek political groups.

Hopefully, in the future we won't be seeing suppression of personal choice, whether you believe in God (or gods), or believe God doesn't exist. You will have the freedom to follow your beliefs.

People should ALWAYS have the choice what to believe as long as the y don't impose their belief system on others.
But hopefully we will have global education on a level where everyone can make an informed decision on what to believe.
And that will most likely to point of near certainty lead to naturalistic views of the universe without the need for god/s and other unfounded supernatural beliefs.

[T'Girl]

Timelord_Victorious wrote:

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But hopefully we will have global education on a level where everyone can make an informed decision on what to believe.

And that education will include the full range of choices, religious instruction, as well as the secular options.

In all fairness, you wouldn't exclude one of the options in a public education environment, and then expect an individual to make an informed choice.

[Timelord_Victorious]

T'Girl wrote:

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And that education will include the full range of choices, religious instruction, as well as the secular options.

In all fairness, you wouldn't exclude one of the options in a public education environment, and then expect an individual to make an informed choice.

Education ABOUT relgions, sure. Kirk, Picard and other characters in the show were well versed in historical and cultural backgrounds.
But education as in school and knowledge must be secular.
As soon as people are aware of the other options and get some background information they are free to learn more about the individual relgious teachings from the religion itself.

We don't really have to go into the topic of why religious teachings in schools is not the way to go, right?

[T'Girl]

Timelord_Victorious wrote:

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But education as in school and knowledge must be secular.

So, have the school be required to advance (or "push") one of the options, ahead of the others? You know it's not entirely a secular world out there.

As soon as people are aware of the other options and get some background information they are free to learn more about the individual religious teachings from the religion itself.

Why would people have to seek a portion of their education outside of their school?

We don't really have to go into the topic of why religious teachings in schools is not the way to go, right?

Where better? Schools are places of education, growth, self-discovery. A student (hypothetically) might live in a small town, where education in her faith of choice is otherwise unavailable. She could take it in public school as an elective perhaps.

[Timelord_Victorious]

The problem with religion AS FACT in schools is, that it is a topic of faith. We can by definition not know what and if anything is true about them. There is no evidence at all.

You are free to believe what you want, and education about what religions are out there and what their core beliefs are is fine, too.

But the moment you teach something as fact you better have natural evidence for it.

And a scientific education is the only one where that can be made sure.

The moment you present evidenceless beliefs as equal to science you lose the seperation of state and church so a secular school is the only one that has validity.

Not to mention, which faith do you plan to teach as fact? Christianity? Islam? Buddhism? Hinduism? Sikh? Cargo Cults?
Either all of them or none....

If you teach all of them you render every single one invalid, because they contradict each other.

That's why we only teach things as fact in schools which we can in fact know, because they are observable and verifiable.

[Star Wolf]

Freman wrote:

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Hopefully organized religion has gone the way of the dodo by the 23rd/24th century. We're supposed to evolve, right? Not stay stuck in the dark ages.

I remember a Klingon at a feast snarling about our human prejudices, even the term itself "human rights" was held up to contempt. By canon, in the 24th Century faith existed among the Klingons and the Bajorans who where invited into the Federation. Thus faith exist in the Trekverse

[Timelord_Victorious]

We have lots of examples of other cultures having some Kind of religious faith.
Bajorans don't really need faith to believe in their gods. They know the prophets exist and can even meet them: fly into the wormhole with an orb and you can be pretty sure to get an audience.
They have faith in a prophet related afterlife however for which there is no evidence except in the case of Sisko.

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ Reminds me of HHGttG:

`I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'
`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'
`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly disappears in a puff of logic.
`Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

[T'Girl]

Timelord_Victorious wrote:

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Bajorans don't really need faith to believe in their gods.

A few years ago I hired a surgeon to operate on my ankle, this person had previously operated on multiple members of my family, and I had faith in the doctor's abilities.

Faith means (among other definitions) possessing confidence and trust ... in God, or in a person or in a thing. My faith in God is a expression of my complete confidence and trust in Him.

You seem to be wanting to use a narrow meaning of the term "faith." Kira has personally interacted with the Prophets, and subsequently she possessed "faith" in the Prophets. There no indication that her being in their presence increased or decreased her faith.

If you have faith in your spouse, does this mean your spouse doesn't exist? If you trust in your friends, does this mean they don't exist? If you possess confidence in your doctor, does this make them a incompetent fool?

Timelord Victorious, I travel to a far away land and happen upon a unique flower, and then continue on my way, eventually ending up in front of you. I tell you all about this flower, how it smelt, the sound the leaves made in the wind, what it looked like, even the taste of the blossoms. You then respond that you never experienced this flower yourself, and for that reason it doesn't exist.

But in that far away land, the flower continues to sway in the breeze.

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ Nicely done.