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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old January 14 2013, 05:16 AM   #31
Captain Tracy
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Re: Anti-Spock racism/general disrespect for the XO

Bad Atom wrote: View Post
A lot of people forget that "Gene's vision of a perfect humanity where everyone gets along" is a legend that started after the show went off the air. The characters in the original series were not like that, so their behavior can seem shocking. They were good people, but flawed, arrogant, and yes, even a bit racist. But that's what makes them so interesting, even today.
This is an incredibly salient and important point to remember.

These were NOT 23rd Century men in space, they were mid-1960 White Anglo culture in space, and they were real, and an accurate reflection of themselves and their culture of that time,.. The men openly chased the women, and punched each other out, got drunk, and talked about honor,.. and they DID NOT walk around the bridge on egg shells because Uhura was "other than caucasian", and Sulu's hobby was flowers.

So, trying to make STAR TREK out as some sort of utopian vision of the future, is total nonsense (as the above poster pointed out),... is was what it was: Mid-1960's American culture in Space,.. talking peace, while all the while zapping all that opposed the UFP agenda, one way or another. by hook or by crook,.. just like the war at the time.
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Old January 14 2013, 05:17 AM   #32
smalltalk66
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Re: Anti-Spock racism/general disrespect for the XO

What bothered me the most was Kirk defending Spock in "Balance of Terror" from Stile's racism...and then, many episodes later, he and McCoy refer to Spock as a "devil" in "The Apple." WTF??? Yeah, I know McCoy and Kirk were just kidding, but they said that to Spock's face.

Not very cool or professional to do that to someone that you considerto be your best friend--especially if he's an officer who just got hit by a lightning bolt. If I were Spock, I'd have Vulcanized both their asses on the spot. lol
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Old January 14 2013, 05:31 AM   #33
Nerys Myk
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Re: Anti-Spock racism/general disrespect for the XO

smalltalk66 wrote: View Post
What bothered me the most was Kirk defending Spock in "Balance of Terror" from Stile's racism...and then, many episodes later, he and McCoy refer to Spock as a "devil" in "The Apple." WTF??? Yeah, I know McCoy and Kirk were just kidding, but they said that to Spock's face.

Not very cool or professional to do that to someone that you considerto be your best friend--especially if he's an officer who just got hit by a lightning bolt. If I were Spock, I'd have Vulcanized both their asses on the spot. lol
To be fair Spock brought it up. And they didn't call him the devil they just mentioned he looked more like Satan than Kirk did. Now, Capt. Tracy, he did call Spock the devil.
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Old January 14 2013, 05:31 AM   #34
Dale Sams
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Re: Anti-Spock racism/general disrespect for the XO

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
Bad Atom wrote: View Post
A lot of people forget that "Gene's vision of a perfect humanity where everyone gets along" is a legend that started after the show went off the air. The characters in the original series were not like that, so their behavior can seem shocking. They were good people, but flawed, arrogant, and yes, even a bit racist. But that's what makes them so interesting, even today.
This is an incredibly salient and important point to remember.

These were NOT 23rd Century men in space, they were mid-1960 White Anglo culture in space, and they were real, and an accurate reflection of themselves and their culture of that time,.. The men openly chased the women, and punched each other out, got drunk, and talked about honor,.. and they DID NOT walk around the bridge on egg shells because Uhura was "other than caucasian", and Sulu's hobby was flowers.

So, trying to make STAR TREK out as some sort of utopian vision of the future, is total nonsense (as the above poster pointed out),... is was what it was: Mid-1960's American culture in Space,.. talking peace, while all the while zapping all that opposed the UFP agenda, one way or another. by hook or by crook,.. just like the war at the time.
I don't think it's even particularly unrealistic if McCoy and Scotty really feel that way on some level. Vulcan-Human relations wern't particularly smooth up to that point.

And the very definition of being prejudiced is anticipating a group of people to act one way and making ill-adviced actions over pre-judging.

So when Spock would make some 'cold-blooded' decisions*, it's completly realistic that some people would flip out without thinking things through.

*And usually Spock was making a SMART call, and not some crazy Command Decision as seen in the simulation where Troi was trying to pass the "Command test". There were probably some horror stories going around about Vulcans weighing lives as figures in an accountants book.

And as for Spock, not only is he putting up with all this...he's in an alien culture. It's not surprising that he often picked very awkward moments to say something like, "You humans must be so proud about killing millions in your World Wars".
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Old January 14 2013, 05:37 AM   #35
Captain Tracy
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Re: Anti-Spock racism/general disrespect for the XO

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
Bad Atom wrote: View Post
A lot of people forget that "Gene's vision of a perfect humanity where everyone gets along" is a legend that started after the show went off the air. The characters in the original series were not like that, so their behavior can seem shocking. They were good people, but flawed, arrogant, and yes, even a bit racist. But that's what makes them so interesting, even today.
This is an incredibly salient and important point to remember.

These were NOT 23rd Century men in space, they were mid-1960 White Anglo culture in space, and they were real, and an accurate reflection of themselves and their culture of that time,.. The men openly chased the women, and punched each other out, got drunk, and talked about honor,.. and they DID NOT walk around the bridge on egg shells because Uhura was "other than caucasian", and Sulu's hobby was flowers.

So, trying to make STAR TREK out as some sort of utopian vision of the future, is total nonsense (as the above poster pointed out),... is was what it was: Mid-1960's American culture in Space,.. talking peace, while all the while zapping all that opposed the UFP agenda, one way or another. by hook or by crook,.. just like the war at the time.
I don't think it's even particularly unrealistic if McCoy and Scotty really feel that way on some level. Vulcan-Human relations wern't particularly smooth up to that point.

And the very definition of being prejudiced is anticipating a group of people to act one way and making ill-adviced actions over pre-judging.

So when Spock would make some 'cold-blooded' decisions*, it's completly realistic that some people would flip out without thinking things through.

*And usually Spock was making a SMART call, and not some crazy Command Decision as seen in the simulation where Troi was trying to pass the "Command test". There were probably some horror stories going around about Vulcans weighing lives as figures in an accountants book.

And as for Spock, not only is he putting up with all this...he's in an alien culture. It's not surprising that he often picked very awkward moments to say something like, "You humans must be so proud about killing millions in your World Wars".
Exactly,.. "folks is folks" They do what they do while saying one thing and thinking another. Put them in space all you want, they are going to take their culture and attitudes with them.
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Old January 14 2013, 06:18 PM   #36
Anwar
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Re: Anti-Spock racism/general disrespect for the XO

But like I said, replace all their "Green blooded bastard" stuff with normal racist terms like calling Sulu "Yellow-skinned bastard" or Uhura "Negress", and these guys become a lot less sympathetic.

I mean, why should that sort of thing be tolerated just because Spock was an alien? What if they did do it to the non-white humans all the time?
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Old January 14 2013, 06:36 PM   #37
Nerys Myk
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Re: Anti-Spock racism/general disrespect for the XO

Anwar wrote: View Post
But like I said, replace all their "Green blooded bastard" stuff with normal racist terms like calling Sulu "Yellow-skinned bastard" or Uhura "Negress", and these guys become a lot less sympathetic.

I mean, why should that sort of thing be tolerated just because Spock was an alien? What if they did do it to the non-white humans all the time?
Then the TV show wouldn't have aired.

Did they ever actually use "bastard" in TOS? Google says no. "Green blooded Hobgoblin" is the only TOS quote I can find.

While "Negress" and "Negro" are outdated are they really racist?
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Old January 14 2013, 06:36 PM   #38
Melakon
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Re: Anti-Spock racism/general disrespect for the XO

The most offensive term I've encountered lately is the tendency of some politicians to refer to members of their party as "Real American Patriots".
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Old January 14 2013, 08:35 PM   #39
Timo
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Re: Anti-Spock racism/general disrespect for the XO

Switch all of McCoy's "Green blooded son of a bitch!" stuff to "Dark-skinned son of a bitch!" and his attitude really gets disgusting.
they were mid-1960 White Anglo culture in space
From the in-universe perspective, that of Spock's, the opposite is true, though. McCoy would be the inferior breed, the representative of the more-animal-than-man servant race that enjoys the privilege of working for the superior greenblood nobility. It's a cannon-fodder crew of "blacks" there, with one worthy "white" slumming with them for noble reasons of his own, and being quite tolerant of the racial slurs of 'em stupid niggers because naturally they just won't know any better.

The organization won't crumble out of disrespect for whites, because it's a black organization through and through; it's Spock's own decision to go slum there, and if he takes umbrage, it's again a personal rather than hierarchical matter.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old January 14 2013, 09:52 PM   #40
Captain Tracy
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Re: Anti-Spock racism/general disrespect for the XO

Melakon wrote: View Post
The most offensive term I've encountered lately is the tendency of some politicians to refer to members of their party as "Real American Patriots".
It strikes you that way because it is universal code for 'Fascist Regime', as in: The REAL ___(a)___ ____(b)___.

For space 'A' simply input any one of the flowing Geo/Policio terms, and for space 'B' simply input any one of the flowing organization structural descriptors.

LIST A: America, German, Russian, Italian, British, Ugandan, Roman, etc.

LIST B: Patriots, Party, Mafia, Union, Empire, Republic, Collective

Mix and Match, have fun, discover Historical Dictators and their Nationalist fervor-driven regimes!!!

Research the political agendas they instilled by controlling the masses (usually instituted during times of economic despair,... often sold as the "road to recovery" by some big personality who appears suddenly out of the mist to challenge, or out right over-throw, the currently installed government - while promising to deliver the people with his 'new deal', "new world order', 'new plan', 'new way', 'new dawn',... take your pick)

So yes,.. anytime you see the words The REAL before an organizations moniker, watch out.
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Old January 14 2013, 10:03 PM   #41
Melakon
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Re: Anti-Spock racism/general disrespect for the XO

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
It strikes you that way because. . .
Please don't presume that you know how I think.
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Old January 14 2013, 10:04 PM   #42
Captain Tracy
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Re: Anti-Spock racism/general disrespect for the XO

Timo wrote: View Post
From the in-universe perspective, that of Spock's, the opposite is true, though. McCoy would be the inferior breed, the representative of the more-animal-than-man servant race that enjoys the privilege of working for the superior greenblood nobility. It's a cannon-fodder crew of "blacks" there, with one worthy "white" slumming with them for noble reasons of his own, and being quite tolerant of the racial slurs of 'em stupid niggers because naturally they just won't know any better.

Timo Saloniemi
Exactly spot-on. Again, it is all about PERSPECTIVES. That is probably the best summation of the likely attitude which Spock has to deal with on a ship full of humans.

I suppose if one considers he must keep his 'human-half' in check continually, I wonder if that same half of him just want to scream out in frustration about "those stupid freakin' Terrans"? LOL!
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Old January 14 2013, 10:10 PM   #43
Captain Tracy
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Re: Anti-Spock racism/general disrespect for the XO

Melakon wrote: View Post
Captain Tracy wrote: View Post
It strikes you that way because. . .
Please don't presume that you know how I think.
and that would be the "collective" use of the word "you, we, or us",.. not the "personal".
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Old January 14 2013, 11:11 PM   #44
Anwar
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Re: Anti-Spock racism/general disrespect for the XO

Captain Tracy wrote: View Post

Exactly spot-on. Again, it is all about PERSPECTIVES. That is probably the best summation of the likely attitude which Spock has to deal with on a ship full of humans.
Again though, it makes him a hypocrite because he knows full well that the Vulcans used to be far worse than Humanity ever was.
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Old January 14 2013, 11:24 PM   #45
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Re: Anti-Spock racism/general disrespect for the XO

Anwar wrote: View Post
But like I said, replace all their "Green blooded bastard" stuff with normal racist terms like calling Sulu "Yellow-skinned bastard" or Uhura "Negress", and these guys become a lot less sympathetic.
I suppose the positive spin of this is that Star Trek reserved its racial ribbing (or racial tension as with Stiles) for a fictional species, implicitly suggesting that racism was very much in Earth's past.

But also yeah, the show does carry its 1960s baggage around and that's dated some aspects pretty badly.
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