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Old January 11 2013, 08:38 AM   #106
RPJOB
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Re: After Romulus

Christopher wrote: View Post
RPJOB wrote: View Post
But why would you WANT to do something that's already been done? Wouldn't it be more interesting to see differing outcomes?
Sure, but that doesn't mean this particular one is desirable or remotely plausible. The number of ad hoc rationalizations and logical convolutions you'd have to pile on top of each other to justify it makes it very unappealing, and I don't see anything to be gained by doing it. Kill every last Romulan? What the hell is the point? What do you do next? Certainly it's far more interesting to show the surviving elements of Romulan civilization coping with the loss of their homeworld.


RPJOB wrote: View Post
Note the word human. These are NOT humans. They're aliens. If they're going to act and react and respond just like humans they why even bother making them aliens?
That doesn't wash. Most Trek "aliens" are blatantly humanlike in their psychology. They're allegories for facets of human behavior or for human cultures. In 46-plus years, the Romulans have never been shown to behave in a way that would seem arbitrary or incomprehensible to humans. They've been used as analogues for Earth cultures from Ancient Rome to the USSR, maybe with a bit of North Korea thrown in given their bouts of isolationism. They have consistently been portrayed as an interstellar empire, a power using military force to conquer, control, and expand their territory. The notion that they would all be living on their home planet is simply not consistent with that. What you're proposing is to ignore everything we've ever learned about the Romulans and arbitrarily impose a whole new interpretation of them in order to justify a story choice that has no evident benefit or purpose.


RPJOB wrote: View Post
I've been rereading Spock's Wold recently and there's a passage that talks about how very few Vulcans have ever left their planet, let alone their system.
So? That novel isn't canonical. Enterprise showed us a Vulcan civilization with a large and active interstellar presence. That canonical evidence supersedes a decades-old novel, no matter how well-loved the novel is.
Nonsense. See my earlier comment about Romulus being the British Empire and suddenly having the British Isles disappear. How much of an Empire would be left? The percentage of British citizens, as opposed to colonials such as India, was a minuscule fraction.

There would still be British bases, primarily naval ports and there would be some civilians ling amongst the colonial population but you wouldn't have an Empire to run things any longer. How is that arbitrary or incomprehensible? There's no reason, however, to portray them as humans in silly foam appliances either.

Essentially I see it as Romulus having orbital bases around planets with indigenous populations. Of course there would be a few on the surface at any time but they'd much prefer to be up above, looking doen on the natives. On wholly Romulan colonies it would essentially be country homes for the high ranking members of the government and military. A very small population, all Romulan. Why let some alien sully your worlds? We didn't see any aliens on Romulus. Where are the other members of the Empire? How about, there aren't any. They're basically slave labor and not allowed off their homeworlds or industrial planets like Remus.

I've never said that ALL Romulans would be wiped out. A large part of their empire would be by the supernova. Why else would Spock feel the need to stop it AFTER Romulus had been destroyed? He said he didn't have much time. Time for what? Letting the blast go beyond the point of no return.

In regards to Vulcan colonies this is what Memory Alpha has:

Vulcan Colonies
These colonies were established by the Vulcan High Command. Many of them are older than the Federation itself.
Paan Mokar
Vulcanis Lunar Colony

It's missing P'Jem but it was a listening post disguised as a monastery, not a full on colony.

The Vulcans wanted Paan Mokar for strategic reasons and to keep it out of Andorian control. Hardly a thriving colony world.

Vulcanis Lunar Colony could be in the Vulcan home system for all we know, perhaps on T'Khut or it's moon as seen in the initial release of TMP.

Vulcans don't seem to be the colonizing type either.
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Old January 11 2013, 03:43 PM   #107
rfmcdpei
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Re: After Romulus

RPJOB wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
RPJOB wrote: View Post
I've been rereading Spock's Wold recently and there's a passage that talks about how very few Vulcans have ever left their planet, let alone their system.
So? That novel isn't canonical. Enterprise showed us a Vulcan civilization with a large and active interstellar presence. That canonical evidence supersedes a decades-old novel, no matter how well-loved the novel is.
Nonsense. See my earlier comment about Romulus being the British Empire and suddenly having the British Isles disappear. How much of an Empire would be left? The percentage of British citizens, as opposed to colonials such as India, was a minuscule fraction.
There wouldn't be millions of British subjects in India. There would be millions of people of British descent, recent emigrants and otherwise, in various parts of the empire: Canada, Australia, South Africa ...

There would still be British bases, primarily naval ports and there would be some civilians ling amongst the colonial population but you wouldn't have an Empire to run things any longer. How is that arbitrary or incomprehensible? There's no reason, however, to portray them as humans in silly foam appliances either.
What do you think about the portrayal of Cardassians as a colonizing sort?

Essentially I see it as Romulus having orbital bases around planets with indigenous populations. Of course there would be a few on the surface at any time but they'd much prefer to be up above, looking doen on the natives. On wholly Romulan colonies it would essentially be country homes for the high ranking members of the government and military. A very small population, all Romulan. Why let some alien sully your worlds? We didn't see any aliens on Romulus. Where are the other members of the Empire? How about, there aren't any. They're basically slave labor and not allowed off their homeworlds or industrial planets like Remus.
What do you think about the novelverse's explicit establishment of your preferred version of Romulan colonization as a non-starter?
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Old January 11 2013, 06:04 PM   #108
RPJOB
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Re: After Romulus

Prior to 1 January 1949, Indians were British subjects under United Kingdom law. See British nationality law. Between 1 January 1949 and 25 January 1950, Indians remained British subjects without citizenship unless they had already acquired citizenship of the UK & Colonies or another Commonwealth country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_nationality_law
So you're right. There weren't millions of British subjects in India. There were hundreds of millions of them. However, they were still citizens of India and not Britain. They were, however, subjects of the monarch. Now, imagine British = Romulan. Not British = not Romulan. If Britain sudden;y disappeared then Indians would no longer be British subjects because that country no longer existed. The British citizens in Didia would still be British but would have no Empire to back them up.

I think that the novelverse isn't a huge, monolithic entity like some people think it is. There's a subset that has a shared continuity but even within that there's parts that contradict. There's also stand alone novels. If you had enforced your rules on everything fitting into a single continuity then we wouldn't have gotten Diane Duane's Rihannsu or Ford's The Final Reflection.
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Old January 11 2013, 07:41 PM   #109
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Re: After Romulus

Even if there are substantial numbers of Romulans alive, as a political entity the Empire may not exist assuch.
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Old January 11 2013, 08:39 PM   #110
Lee Son of Pete
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Re: After Romulus

I know it doesn't intrinsically imply anything, but I think it's worth remembering that the Roman Empire survived for hundreds of years after Rome fell. It's character changed and it developed*, but then every society changes over time doesn't it?





*to the extent that modern historians refer to it as the Byzantine Empire in order to distinguish it from the classical Roman Empire. The 'Byzantines' themselves though considered themselves Romans, and their nation The Roman Empire.
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Old January 11 2013, 09:26 PM   #111
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Re: After Romulus

[QUOTE=RPJOB;7520347]
Prior to 1 January 1949, Indians were British subjects under United Kingdom law. See British nationality law. Between 1 January 1949 and 25 January 1950, Indians remained British subjects without citizenship unless they had already acquired citizenship of the UK & Colonies or another Commonwealth country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_nationality_law
Your terminologies are confused.

You suggested that, if something happened to the British Isles, British culture would be defunct. That is not the case. At the height of the British Empire, there were multiple large territories under nominal British rule where culturally British people of British background were a considerable minority (India, South Africa) or an outright majority (Canada, Australia). British culture would not have gone extinct if the British Isles happened to be destroyed--it would be battered, but the human community of millions of Britons belonging to the same world power would survive.

In the case of the destruction of the British Isles, would there be substantial powers shifts? Sure. Your example of India, where the overwhelming majority of the large population was not of British background, comes to mind. Canada and Australia and maybe even South Africa might well culturally British and even stay part of a post-British empire, but India? It might easily break away. Romulan subject species, like the Kevratans, might do the same after Eisn is scoured.

I think that the novelverse isn't a huge, monolithic entity like some people think it is. There's a subset that has a shared continuity but even within that there's parts that contradict. There's also stand alone novels. If you had enforced your rules on everything fitting into a single continuity then we wouldn't have gotten Diane Duane's Rihannsu or Ford's The Final Reflection.
The novel that you cited as evidence for your thesis about Romulan immobility, Spock's World, belongs to a particular continuity wherein it's made explicitly clear that the Romulans unlike the Vulcans are an expansionistic, colonizing people. In any case, the Duaneverse continuity has been mostly superseded, partly absorbed, by the current novelverse continuity. (In her later Rihannsu novels, partly written with an eye towards the current continuity, Duane described a much bigger Romulan community that she initially mentioned, with second-generation colonies and "client worlds".) So that doesn't work to support your point.

What does the current novelverse hold as canon? There are multiple large Romulan communities scattered across the Romulan Star Empire, many dating back centuries (Artaleirh), some of these sufficiently large to contend for the position of capital of the Romulan community whether after the brief split (Achernar Prime) or after the destruction of Romulus (Rator III, among others). The current praetor even comes from one of these Romulan worlds (Glintara). What incentive do authors have to revise the novelverse canon so as to eliminate these Romulan-populated worlds? Besides doubling back on a decade's worth of writing, your suggested revision doesn't make sense in light of the way imperialist powers behave and doesn't lend itself to telling interesting stories.
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Old January 11 2013, 09:37 PM   #112
Christopher
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Re: After Romulus

Lee Son of Pete wrote: View Post
I know it doesn't intrinsically imply anything, but I think it's worth remembering that the Roman Empire survived for hundreds of years after Rome fell. It's character changed and it developed*, but then every society changes over time doesn't it?
Right. The Roman Empire didn't fall when Rome fell; only the Western Roman Empire fell. For centuries before then, the empire had basicaly had two halves, a Western half with Latin as the official language, and an Eastern half with Greek as the official language (and which was in a lot of ways a continuation of the Hellenistic culture that preceded Roman rule there). The Eastern empire endured a millennium longer than the Western one (at least officially, though by the end there was little to it beyond Constantinople).
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Old January 11 2013, 09:49 PM   #113
Lee Son of Pete
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Re: After Romulus

There were also plenty of spin-off nations that considered themselves Romans, such as the Sultanate of Rum, and even to an extent Romania. In fact the Catholic Church is arguably the Roman Empire, as most of the Western Roman nobility, when it became clear Rome was doomed, took up positions in the church.
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Old January 11 2013, 10:09 PM   #114
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Re: After Romulus

And then of course there's the Holy Roman Empire, which was neither holy, Roman, nor an empire.
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Old January 11 2013, 10:14 PM   #115
Lee Son of Pete
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Re: After Romulus

Haha, yeah, I didn't include them for essentially the three reasons you listed.
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Old January 11 2013, 11:07 PM   #116
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Re: After Romulus

Now I'm getting verklempt.
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Old January 12 2013, 11:10 AM   #117
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Re: After Romulus

You guys know too much stuff.
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Old January 12 2013, 08:05 PM   #118
RPJOB
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Re: After Romulus

I never knew that the entire heart of the Roman Empire disappeared in a matter of seconds. I'd swear that Rome still exists. You learn something new every day.

Of course any analogy we come up with isn't going to be exact.
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Old January 14 2013, 12:41 AM   #119
Lee Son of Pete
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Re: After Romulus

RPJOB wrote: View Post
I never knew that the entire heart of the Roman Empire disappeared in a matter of seconds. I'd swear that Rome still exists. You learn something new every day.

Of course any analogy we come up with isn't going to be exact.
But Rome was not in the Roman Empire for the last 1000 years or so of it's existence, it was 'sacked' which means politically it was destroyed in a very short period of time, maybe not seconds, but allowing for poorer communications, it was politically the equivalent.

The only conceivable way that Romulans are gone after the destruction of Romulus is if they all lived on Romulus, which as we have already established, is unlikely in the extreme, and, in the novel continuity, which is likely to be the only one where the question is ever addressed, already stated not to be the case.
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