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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old January 13 2013, 07:43 PM   #106
YARN
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
YARN wrote:
Is this an odd detail or isn't it?
In the context of Star Trek? No.
1. Then the general context of Star Trek should be noted to be curious in this aspect. We should admit that Trek is generally flawed in how it deploys these lopsided narrative devices. And it is, therefore, unfortunate that Orci in wishing to improve Trek by leaving behind causal paradoxes left the back door open with his reboot.

2. We have seen, as I have noted, that even though Spock has NOT cheated to save various colonies and alien worlds, he has been MORE than willing to cheat time to save Earth. Since Vulcan (and his mother) are at least as salient/proximate to Spock as Earth. And since Spock has been willing to correct incursions/alterations to timelines in the past, he should have more than enough justification and motivation to save Vulcan.
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Old January 13 2013, 07:49 PM   #107
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

YARN wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
YARN wrote:
Is this an odd detail or isn't it?
In the context of Star Trek? No.
1. Then the general context of Star Trek should be noted to be curious in this aspect. We should admit that Trek is generally flawed in how it deploys these lopsided narrative devices. And it is, therefore, unfortunate that Orci in wishing to improve Trek by leaving behind causal paradoxes left the back door open with his reboot.

2. We have seen, as I have noted, that even though Spock has NOT cheated to save various colonies and alien worlds, he has been MORE than willing to cheat time to save Earth. Since Vulcan (and his mother) are at least as salient/proximate to Spock as Earth. And since Spock has been willing to correct incursions/alterations to timelines in the past, he should have more than enough justification and motivation to save Vulcan.
1) I like that Star Trek used to strive to tell the best story possible, despite what came before.

2) That's not Spock Prime's mother. His mother and father lived and died in another timeline.
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Old January 13 2013, 07:49 PM   #108
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

Nu-trek can still be "more realistic" without being "real-world realistic". It is simply a more realistic slant on THE FAMILIAR STAR TREK UNIVERSE.

For example, Casino Royale (2006) was certainly more realistic in tone than, say, A View to Kill, but it was still far from being a realistic representation of the actual world. Casino Royale was 'realistic' only within the framework of the James Bond world.
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Old January 13 2013, 07:54 PM   #109
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

What Abrahms, Kurtzman, and Orci are too polite to say is, "Jesus H. Christ, shut the fuck up about the minutiae of temporal physics and just enjoy the movie. Or DON'T enjoy it; your choice. We liked the Original Series, too, but our primary purpose here, and the studio's, is to make money and get as much mileage out of the franchise as we can. If you think you can do it better, sell the powers-that-be a script and maybe they'll make YOUR movie."
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Old January 13 2013, 07:59 PM   #110
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

BillJ wrote: View Post
1) I like that Star Trek used to strive to tell the best story possible, despite what came before.
What is the best story? If it is the one which is the most realistic, then Trek has always been in trouble (which is why quoting Orci doing his best to justify Trek in terms of quantum physics is preposterous). If it is to tell a story which is most coherent, then Orci would have been better served by a hard reboot. Just start over and perhaps never even raise the prospect of backward time travel.

If you're going to boldly go in a new direction, then just boldly go, and leave old Trek behind without a passing of the torch narrative.

BillJ wrote: View Post
2) That's not Spock Prime's mother. His mother and father lived and died in another timeline.
And yet Old Spock still reported that he was emotionally compromised. And this means he still had motivation as well as justification.
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Old January 13 2013, 08:02 PM   #111
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

1) The best story is the most entertaining story. Period.

2) Spock Prime was showing Kirk the avenue to take in order to gain command of the Enterprise. Yes, he was upset as well. But the whole point was to get Kirk into the captains chair.
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Old January 13 2013, 08:24 PM   #112
YARN
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

SicOne wrote: View Post
What Abrahms, Kurtzman, and Orci are too polite to say is, "Jesus H. Christ, shut the fuck up about the minutiae of temporal physics and just enjoy the movie.
Curious. Why then in the extended quotation which was presented in this thread did Orci go on at length about the minutiae of temporal physics? If you wanted to direct attention away from physics and coherence, why then would you stand on them as justification for your story?

SicOne wrote: View Post
Or DON'T enjoy it; your choice.
Can't we ask these questions and still enjoy our stories?

Why do we have to chose between asking narrative questions and enjoyment?

SicOne wrote: View Post
We liked the Original Series, too, but our primary purpose here, and the studio's, is to make money and get as much mileage out of the franchise as we can.
Why should I respect the mere motivation to make money? I am sure that if one of the Harry Potter kids made a porn movie, it would make money, but I am unaware why I, for that reason, would be obligated to respect that purpose.

I am sure that these people want to exploit the Trek franchise to milk it for every dime. I do not blame them for wanting to make money, but I do not - for that reason - feel any duty to praise their choices.

SicOne wrote: View Post
If you think you can do it better, sell the powers-that-be a script and maybe they'll make YOUR movie."
In that case, every film critic in the world should be out of business. Every professor who ever analyzed a poem or short story or play should cease and desist. Any woman or man who never did or could play professional sports should stand mute and never again comment upon a sporting event.

I don't own a factory. Do I need to own one to be able to note a defect in a product? I can't produce cars in my garage. Should I not, for that reason, criticize a Ford for having defective brakes.

The list of informal fallacies in this thread is staggering.
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Old January 13 2013, 09:34 PM   #113
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

What is staggering is the amount of energy you are devoting to parsing out the flaws (real or otherwise) in a fluffy piece of popcorn entertainment. (Well, it's not really staggering, given some other stuff I've read around here over the years, but the degree of pomposity you are employing is rather excessive, even within these parts.)

Feel free to point out whatever flaws you perceive. Feel free to offer up explanations for the flaws. Feel free to offer alternative suggestions to the flaws. Feel free to be exasperated that others don't have the same views as you.

DO NOT feel free to presume you are somehow superior to those who disagree with you (a strong undercurrent of many of your posts--as is usually the case when pomposity rears its head).

Besides, it not as if everyone disagrees with everything you've said. It's that many of us simply don't care enough to get in a tizzy over whatever flaws you've identified that we might also have seen.

Critics and professors can of course continue of analyze and critique things to their hearts' content (as can you). But most of those I've known (in each category) also know well enough to categorize various forms of art and entertainment and apply standards accordingly. Star Trek simply isn't that high up the scale.
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Old January 13 2013, 09:41 PM   #114
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

YARN wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
M'Sharak also pointed this out to you in a post. These were the rules Orci and Kurtzman operated by. In this universe, you can't do what you're asking for.
This has been dealt with upthread too.
If "dealt with" means the same thing to you as does "skipped over without acknowledging," then yes, granted. But, to spell it out more fully than I did upthread:
Orci-Kurtzman Q&A session at TrekMovie wrote:
Dan:
Spock Prime could go back in time and stop Nero, like all the other ways they have done before in movies and TV shows in the past Trek lore, he doesn’t need Red Matter to only go back in time to stop Nero. It’s lame for Bob to say that Prime Spok can’t do time travel without Red Matter. When they could just fly around the Sun like he did in Star Trek IV, or Picard did in First Contact.

BobOrci:
In our Universe, as long as I am here, you can’t just slingshot around the sun and linear time is a misconception from the middle part of the 20th century.. A good analogy for what we have done here would be to imagine we were rebooting the modern adventures of a sailor, who at the time that his stories were told, it was believed the earth was flat. Now, years later, here in the re-whatever, we know the world is round. So our story exists in a world where the world is now round, despite that being a “canon” violation.
Slingshotting is not an available option. Period. The (then-current) model upon which the idea was based is effectively obsolete, and has been replaced (for purposes of this incarnation of Trek, at the very least) with a different model - one which does not allow closed-loop time travel. In practical terms, that mode of time travel never existed. To insist that it still does exist is to wilfully ignore The Way Things Are Now (according to the guys who are telling the stories).


YARN wrote: View Post
...

The list of informal fallacies in this thread is staggering.
If you're interested in participating in discussion, then you're welcome to do so. However, the recurrent cataloguing of fallacies in which you've been engaging has the effect, more and more, of making it look as if this really is the "gotcha" topic you've insisted it is not. If the responses you're getting don't fit the answers you had already written on your checklist, it does not automatically render them invalid or fallacious; it only means that it would probably have been more realistic for you to be expecting those other answers and not now be trying to force them to fit into your predetermined "right answer" checklist boxes.
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Old January 13 2013, 10:01 PM   #115
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

YARN wrote: View Post
And he has every reason to attempt it. Why save Earth, but not Vulcan?
But why hurry?
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Old January 13 2013, 10:04 PM   #116
YARN
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

Ovation wrote: View Post
What is staggering is the amount of energy you are devoting to parsing out the flaws (real or otherwise) in a fluffy piece of popcorn entertainment.
LOL, it's a Trek forum. It's where we come to talk at ridiculous lengths about unimportant details.

Ovation wrote: View Post
(Well, it's not really staggering, given some other stuff I've read around here over the years, but the degree of pomposity you are employing is rather excessive, even within these parts.)
Because I asked the question? Because I've discussed my side of the question?

Ovation wrote: View Post
Feel free to point out whatever flaws you perceive.
OK.

Ovation wrote: View Post
Feel free to offer up explanations for the flaws.Feel free to offer alternative suggestions to the flaws. Feel free to be exasperated that others don't have the same views as you.
But I am not exasperated. Indeed, how could I (allegedly) exude pompous superiority in the face of opposition if I were?

Ovation wrote: View Post
DO NOT feel free to presume you are somehow superior to those who disagree with you (a strong undercurrent of many of your posts--as is usually the case when pomposity rears its head).
OK, I am not superior. But it is kinda curious that Spock doesn't save Vulcan, ain't it?

Ovation wrote: View Post
Besides, it not as if everyone disagrees with everything you've said. It's that many of us simply don't care enough to get in a tizzy over whatever flaws you've identified that we might also have seen.
And I do not disagree with many things they have said.

It is just a movie. It is certainly no worse a flaw (if that is what it is) than many Trek tale has exhibited. The makers were trying to appease the old while creating the new, a difficult challenge.

Ovation wrote: View Post
Critics and professors can of course continue of analyze and critique things to their hearts' content (as can you). But most of those I've known (in each category) also know well enough to categorize various forms of art and entertainment and apply standards accordingly. Star Trek simply isn't that high up the scale.
So we're back to genre pleading? Strange then, that so many critics asked what the odds were that Kirk would just happen to stumble into the same cave as Old Spock.
Someone should have told them that they only get to criticize high art.

The standard I am applying is coherence, which is about as minimal as standards get.

I think the healthiest thing to do would be to shrug, even admit that it is an open question, rather than respond as if the very question were a sign of an infection which needed to be purged.
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Old January 13 2013, 10:06 PM   #117
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

I feel as if this thread is picking at the nits that could be found in all of Star Trek -- if not almost all movies in general.

Star Trek fans have a long history of shaping "Star Trek logical reality" based on what is presented on the screen -- and what is presented often required some creative shaping to fit what we thought we previously knew about Star Trek (and what was previously presented).

Back on Saturday afternoons in the 1970s watching Star Trek reruns, my friends and I would sit around making up explanations for what we saw on TV that day, trying to make it fit into the "greater Star Trek Universe" that existed in our minds -- and quite a bit of rationalizing needed to be done to make it fit. I'd say the same thing happened with trying to fit TNG into the TOS universe.

It seems we are abandoning that long-standing tradition with this thread.
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Old January 13 2013, 10:44 PM   #118
YARN
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
If "dealt with" means the same thing to you as does "skipped over without acknowledging," then yes, granted.
I'd rather not repeat answers and analysis that are already freely available in this thread. If you really did not catch the response, ask the question again, and I'll cut-and-paste the response.

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Slingshotting is not an available option. Period.
Worship as we may at the altar of authorial intention, authors must still be held to account for what they accomplish, not just what they intended to accomplish. Indeed, we are nearing the old Intentional Fallacy (Wimsatt and Beardsley) if we presume that the author is the God with regard to the meaning and value of a work.

Again, I have already detailed how both universes are intermingled and how we cannot suppose tout court that slingshotting is not an option. All the evidence present to us in the text indicates that it is.

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
The (then-current) model upon which the idea was based is effectively obsolete,
Star Trek is not reality, it is fantasy. There is no "physics of red matter," there is no actual "warp mechanics" which underwrites the function of the engines of starships. If Star Trek shows us in a film that there is red matter which magically creates black holes from nail polish, then in that universe, this is the case. If Star Trek shows us Spock slingshotting around the sun to go back in the same timeline, then this is simply the case.

In short, what fiction posits has greater standing, in term of internal consistency, than what the real-world allows. Our test in this case is coherence. If you want to get all real-world on Star Trek, then the whole universe falls apart. We cannot preferentially defend Star Trek as being real world in some aspects, but then arbitrarily beg off that standard when Trek is not real world. Real world physics has nothing to do with it.

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
and has been replaced (for purposes of this incarnation of Trek, at the very least) with a different model - one which does not allow closed-loop time travel. In practical terms, that mode of time travel never existed.
In which case,

The City on the Edge of Forever never existed, Assignment: Earth never existed,
The Naked Time never existed,
Tomorrow is Yesterday never existed,
All our Yesterdays never existed, and
Star Trek IV never existed.

And it isn't just this. What else never existed? Let's see...

Star Trek: First Contact
We'll Always Have Paris
Time Squared
Yesterday's Enterprise
Captain's Holiday
A Matter of Time
Cause and Effect
Time's Arrow
Time's Arrow, Part II
Tapestry
Timescape
Firstborn
All Good Things...
Past Tense, Part I
Past Tense, Part II
Visionary
The Visitor
Little Green Men
Accession
Trials and Tribble-ations
Children of Time
Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night
Time's Orphan
Parallax
Time and Again
Eye of the Needle
Death Wish
Future's End
Future's End, Part II
Before and After
Timeless
Relativity
Fury
Shattered
Endgame
Cold Front
Shockwave
Shockwave, Part II
Future Tense
Carpenter Street
Azati Prime

Zero Hour
Storm Front
Storm Front, Part II

Indeed, it appears that the Prime Universe never existed! And I thought I was assured that it was still "there" and still "real." Now I find that Old Spock's history and Prime Trek history does not exist anymore. Perhaps it wasn't Old Spock who came through that black hole after all? It is rather, Old Spock lite, with only those historical details that uncomplicate the reality of nu-Trek. So much for the soft-reboot, this is more like getting the boot.

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
To insist that it still does exist is to wilfully ignore The Way Things Are Now (according to the guys who are telling the stories).
What matters more than the confabulations and apologias of the guys who write the story are the details of the stories they actually tell.

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
If you're interested in participating in discussion, then you're welcome to do so. However, the recurrent cataloguing of fallacies in which you've been engaging has the effect, more and more, of making it look as if this really is the "gotcha" topic you've insisted it is not.
There is nothing about the topic which serves as a trap forcing my opponents to use fallacious arguments.

It's not playing "Gotcha" when Sarah Palin cannot answer obvious straightforward questions about national policy. Likewise, it's not playing gotcha, when the opposition hastily reaches for bad reasons in response to questions.

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
If the responses you're getting don't fit the answers you had already written on your checklist, it does not automatically render them invalid or fallacious
Of course not. Rather it is the fallacious nature of the arguments themselves which makes them fallacious.

It's not that I object to an Ad Hominem because I'd rather hear agreement, but because an Ad Hominem is so often a weak argument.
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Old January 13 2013, 10:50 PM   #119
BillJ
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

I've given you reasons why Spock can't just slingshot and save Vulcan, in-universe, and you chose to ignore them.

If he goes back pre-Narada, he changes the course of the universe for billions of beings. He eliminates twenty-five years of existence.

If he goes back to just before the destruction of Vulcan, Jim Kirk never makes it to the captains chair.
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Old January 13 2013, 11:07 PM   #120
JarodRussell
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Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
If "dealt with" means the same thing to you as does "skipped over without acknowledging," then yes, granted. But, to spell it out more fully than I did upthread:
Orci-Kurtzman Q&A session at TrekMovie wrote:
Dan:
Spock Prime could go back in time and stop Nero, like all the other ways they have done before in movies and TV shows in the past Trek lore, he doesn’t need Red Matter to only go back in time to stop Nero. It’s lame for Bob to say that Prime Spok can’t do time travel without Red Matter. When they could just fly around the Sun like he did in Star Trek IV, or Picard did in First Contact.

BobOrci:
In our Universe, as long as I am here, you can’t just slingshot around the sun and linear time is a misconception from the middle part of the 20th century.. A good analogy for what we have done here would be to imagine we were rebooting the modern adventures of a sailor, who at the time that his stories were told, it was believed the earth was flat. Now, years later, here in the re-whatever, we know the world is round. So our story exists in a world where the world is now round, despite that being a “canon” violation.
Slingshotting is not an available option. Period. The (then-current) model upon which the idea was based is effectively obsolete, and has been replaced (for purposes of this incarnation of Trek, at the very least) with a different model - one which does not allow closed-loop time travel. In practical terms, that mode of time travel never existed. To insist that it still does exist is to wilfully ignore The Way Things Are Now (according to the guys who are telling the stories).
So if it turns out warp speed and beaming is impossible...
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