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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old January 12 2013, 03:43 PM   #31
Mojochi
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Re: I think Data just doesn't LIKE to use contractions.

I suspect that in all likelihood, Data is simply under the false impression that he's incapable of forming contractions, much like he mistakenly accepts that he was created completely without emotion, when they constantly flirted with the contrary.

Once they introduced the fact that Data can dream, but was entirely unaware of it, I came to accept that he is simply a being who's unaware of his true potential, & as a result he has mistakenly presumed a few things based on whatever evidence or instruction he had.

Ultimately, it's not a mechanical problem. If he can say its or cant, then he can certainly say it's or can't. No, his problem is that when forming a sentence he accepts that he's incapable of forming a contraction within it, & therefore prevents himself from doing so. Heck, it wouldn't even be too hard to substitute cant for can't in his programming, if he so desired

Nope, his development is such that he levels in achievements like a game, & unlocks abilities, like he did with dreaming, will eventually do with contractions, & would have done with emotion, had Soong not developed the chip upgrade. Sometimes I think that emotion chip was a weak idea. It short changed a very cool potentially natural development of him coming to find emotion within himself all along

After all, that's what happened to the Tin Man
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Old January 12 2013, 05:07 PM   #32
Nacluv
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Re: I think Data just doesn't LIKE to use contractions.

Christopher wrote: View Post
When we're talking about different types of cognition and neurology, you just can't assume that something that's easy for you will be easy for everyone. Your mind works a certain way, and other people's minds can work in unexpectedly different ways.
I'm an Aspergian, so I do know what you're talking about, but I just want to elucidate that it's the exact same thing with extraversion vs introversion. And now I'm rigidly talking about true, introverted minds which has absolutely nothing to do shyness or antisociality. In fact, almost a century after Jung introduced the terms, we have now been able to secernate physiological divergences in the dopamine system of introverts, most prominently the lower fluid and the oversensitivity of dopamine (while extraverts nearly can't get enough of it) but also some minor but yet cardinal aberrations in the design of the receptors.

Actually, this is the reason why introversion is often a side effect of Asperger's since such anomalies in the dopamine system is about the only real etiological fundament that has been corroborated today, while ADHD often emanates (among many other factors) from an overproduction of dopamine. But that's another story.

Back to introversion, I often have experienced (and also read others' experiences) that most extroverts unfortunately, even on the most rudimentary level, often seem unable to digest introversion as pure concept and natural function when being enlightened on why these differences instigates other needs and makes them function differently.

All this is because it's such a different mind framework (eventually antonymous to their own), that it's hard to even think about how something other than what's so natural for them, maybe something they postulate as part of being a living creature, being human. Of course, almost the only exception in which the existence of such is not antinomical, is that something must be REALLY, REALLY wrong with that person.


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Well, it might not exist much longer. Under the proposed revisions to the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders scheduled for publication this May, Asperger syndrome would no longer be defined as a distinct disorder, but would be folded in under autistic spectrum disorders. There have been protests to this from the Asperger community, though.
The essential ratiocination among most of the rational and general protestors is simple; to ignore the individual differences between Aspergers and all the different variations of ASD will result in detrimental obstruction of all future science and understanding regarding these syndromes.
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Old January 12 2013, 05:11 PM   #33
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Re: I think Data just doesn't LIKE to use contractions.

I just remembered that I actually once had a story idea some few years ago (TOS characters in mind) in which the plot allegorically depicts the differences in energy expenditure betweene xtroverted brains and introverted brains.

The planet was called Trevortex.
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Old January 12 2013, 06:10 PM   #34
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Re: I think Data just doesn't LIKE to use contractions.

The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
I'm sorry, you obviously feel very passionate about this.
It's not about passion, it's about understanding the subject and being concerned for accuracy. You're making oversimplified assumptions that do not track with the facts.

Data being a fictional character first and foremost, I think your rationale works, but so does mine.
Obviously your rationale doesn't work to explain the fiction, because it contradicts what's in the fiction. You can say all you want that it should be easy for Data to use contractions, but the evidence before us is that it isn't. Therefore your opinion doesn't work as an explanation for the evidence. It's just wishful thinking.
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Old January 12 2013, 09:53 PM   #35
Trekker4747
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Re: I think Data just doesn't LIKE to use contractions.

Mojochi wrote: View Post
I suspect that in all likelihood, Data is simply under the false impression that he's incapable of forming contractions, much like he mistakenly accepts that he was created completely without emotion, when they constantly flirted with the contrary.
Data was obviously capable of very simple, less broad, emotions. He may not have been capable of feeling love, humor or sadness but he had curiosity. Which can be an emotion, he had desires and wants. Both can be emotions. He had some degree of "affection" for Spot, he attachment to his friends and even "missed" them when absent. So while he may not have been able to "feel sad" or "feel happy" he had "emotion" in some manner or another.

What's even odder Data seemed to have a built-in system to NOT improve himself or achieve goals. When he thinks Q is going to grant him with humanity at the end of (Deja Q?) Data is pretty quick to dismiss it. Same with when Riker -with the power of the Q, was going to give Data that gift. Data turned it down simply because he didn't want to have to "thank" Q for it. What kind of logic is that? Something in Data wanted to be as human as possible so he strived to achieve as much as possible but innately within him he DIDN'T want to be human!
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Old January 12 2013, 10:32 PM   #36
JarodRussell
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Re: I think Data just doesn't LIKE to use contractions.

That contraction idea was extremely silly. It's one of the easiest things to do. There are just so many combinations of words that can be contracted, and since he knows grammar, he knows where to put the contractions. Was that really the best they could come up with? Is he REALLY incapable of using "ISN'T" instead of "IS NOT"? Is he really that stupid? I wouldn't trust such a machine with anything.
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Old January 12 2013, 10:56 PM   #37
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Re: I think Data just doesn't LIKE to use contractions.

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
What's even odder Data seemed to have a built-in system to NOT improve himself or achieve goals. When he thinks Q is going to grant him with humanity at the end of (Deja Q?) Data is pretty quick to dismiss it. Same with when Riker -with the power of the Q, was going to give Data that gift. Data turned it down simply because he didn't want to have to "thank" Q for it. What kind of logic is that? Something in Data wanted to be as human as possible so he strived to achieve as much as possible but innately within him he DIDN'T want to be human!
That's not odd at all. In both cases, it would've been something just handed to him rather than something he achieved through his own efforts. It's perfectly understandable why he would've rejected that kind of an artificial leg up. He didn't just want to have humanity handed to him, he wanted to be worthy of the achievement. He had a sense of inadequacy and incompleteness, and if he were just made human by some outside agency, he wouldn't feel that he deserved it, that he'd earned it. It would feel like a sham to him, a constant reminder of his inadequacy to achieve the goal on his own. So of course he rejected it.
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Old January 12 2013, 11:12 PM   #38
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Re: I think Data just doesn't LIKE to use contractions.

Skimming over this thread.... sometimes I just think people over complicate things.
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Old January 13 2013, 02:49 AM   #39
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Re: I think Data just doesn't LIKE to use contractions.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
What's even odder Data seemed to have a built-in system to NOT improve himself or achieve goals. When he thinks Q is going to grant him with humanity at the end of (Deja Q?) Data is pretty quick to dismiss it. Same with when Riker -with the power of the Q, was going to give Data that gift. Data turned it down simply because he didn't want to have to "thank" Q for it. What kind of logic is that? Something in Data wanted to be as human as possible so he strived to achieve as much as possible but innately within him he DIDN'T want to be human!
That's not odd at all. In both cases, it would've been something just handed to him rather than something he achieved through his own efforts. It's perfectly understandable why he would've rejected that kind of an artificial leg up. He didn't just want to have humanity handed to him, he wanted to be worthy of the achievement. He had a sense of inadequacy and incompleteness, and if he were just made human by some outside agency, he wouldn't feel that he deserved it, that he'd earned it. It would feel like a sham to him, a constant reminder of his inadequacy to achieve the goal on his own. So of course he rejected it.
Such a way of thinking is rather... Emotional isn't it? (Or should I say "is it not." )
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Old January 13 2013, 02:58 AM   #40
Christopher
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Re: I think Data just doesn't LIKE to use contractions.

^Exactly. As someone remarked earlier, Data definitely had emotions even if he didn't have specifically human emotions. He may not have laughed or cried or thrown temper tantrums, but he definitely had aspirations and insecurities.

A thinking being can't not have emotion, because emotion is simply motivation (both words come from the Latin for "to move"). A being that's capable of choice rather than simply acting on instinct or reflex must have some kind of incentive for favoring one choice over another, for preferring one outcome to another. Data (or rather, the show's writers) always defined emotion too narrowly by assuming that only human emotion counted.
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Old January 13 2013, 02:04 PM   #41
Nacluv
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Re: I think Data just doesn't LIKE to use contractions.

Peak Performance comes to mind when you read the word "insecurity".

Actually, some people on disparate personality types boards has suggested that Data is (or would be) more of a feeling type, and even if I do find the typing INFJ incorrect, IMO it's an attestation to the fact that Data is not unisonally viewed as a walking computer.

I think the affections of Lore is enough asseveration of what very well could exist within Data.
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Old January 13 2013, 02:31 PM   #42
Lance
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Re: I think Data just doesn't LIKE to use contractions.

Mojochi wrote: View Post
I suspect that in all likelihood, Data is simply under the false impression that he's incapable of forming contractions, much like he mistakenly accepts that he was created completely without emotion, when they constantly flirted with the contrary.

Once they introduced the fact that Data can dream, but was entirely unaware of it, I came to accept that he is simply a being who's unaware of his true potential, & as a result he has mistakenly presumed a few things based on whatever evidence or instruction he had.

Ultimately, it's not a mechanical problem. If he can say its or cant, then he can certainly say it's or can't. No, his problem is that when forming a sentence he accepts that he's incapable of forming a contraction within it, & therefore prevents himself from doing so. Heck, it wouldn't even be too hard to substitute cant for can't in his programming, if he so desired

Nope, his development is such that he levels in achievements like a game, & unlocks abilities, like he did with dreaming, will eventually do with contractions, & would have done with emotion, had Soong not developed the chip upgrade. Sometimes I think that emotion chip was a weak idea. It short changed a very cool potentially natural development of him coming to find emotion within himself all along
This. I've long been of the same opinion. Data is already pre-programmed with things like contractions and emotions -- we saw more than enough examples of both slipping through over the seven seasons -- but there are simply algorithms in place which stop him from 'recognising' these things, hence he can't (consistently) display them (although occasionally one might sneak through by accident).

Doctor Soong didn't start from the ground-up after Lore went wrong... he simply took the existing template and installed some additional Firewalls to ensure that some of Lore's worse character traits were "hidden" within the Data type, until such time as he was able to figure out how to unlock them without unleashing another Lore on the universe. What we see in the episode Brothers is Soong effectively recalling Data because he's finally come up with that breakthrough: the so-called 'emotion chip'. I say "so-called" because my theory is that the chip doesn't actually give Data emotions. Rather, it simply updates his firmware while removing the restrictions on the emotions that are already built into his core. He was always capable of emotion (re: episodes like The Naked Now where said emotions clearly bubble to the surface), but until the 'emotion chip' was installed, those capabilities were simply locked away within his matrix. Inaccessable.
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Old January 13 2013, 02:55 PM   #43
Mojochi
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Re: I think Data just doesn't LIKE to use contractions.

Christopher wrote:
That's not odd at all. In both cases, it would've been something just handed to him rather than something he achieved through his own efforts.
Right. An innate quality in Data is that he values the achievement of bettering himself, and if his dream program is any indicator, that is what Soong wanted for him that Lore never got, the opportunity to grow into his own sentience. Perhaps missing out on that growth was an important factor in why Lore was so troubled.
R. Star wrote:
Skimming over this thread.... Sometimes I just think people over complicate things
I don't think it's over complicating to want to reconcile what some people think are conflicting elements of a popular character.

So often I'm dismayed when people dismiss elements of Data as just being poorly written by lazy or incompetent writers, simply because they note surface inconsistencies. All characters have inconsistencies and conflict and can contradict themselves, but in Data's case it's just dismissed as bad writing, when it should be perfectly acceptable that these conflicting elements are part of his nature.

He didn't know he could dream. He might not know he's exhibiting emotional conditions at some level, and he probably hasn't figured out that he's mistaken about his inability to use contractions.

It's not like tech or timeline inconsistencies. Data is a character. He's not perfect, nor does he know everything, least of all about himself. If he did, there'd be no character arc at all

It all works just fine if you think about it.
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Old January 13 2013, 05:51 PM   #44
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Re: I think Data just doesn't LIKE to use contractions.

Actually a lot of Data's inconsistencies are the result of changes in the writing staff -- not necessarily bad writing, just different writers coming and going and having different ideas about Data's character. As discussed above, the no-contractions thing was a retcon introduced midway through season 1, before which he'd been using contractions routinely. That was a bit of sloppy continuity due to the upheavals in the first-season writing staff. As for Data's lack of emotion, that wasn't overtly codified until "The Ensigns of Command" early in season 3. Originally, the idea was that Data was capable of emotion but that it was subdued and underdeveloped, a potential he hadn't fully realized yet. He was meant to be childlike and naive in his understanding of emotion, but not completely incapable of experiencing it. "Skin of Evil" and "The Measure of a Man" made it clear that he did have feelings for Tasha Yar. But for whatever reason, by the start of season 3 the producers at the time decided that they wanted Data to be totally devoid of emotion, a decision I've never understood.
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Old January 13 2013, 06:13 PM   #45
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Re: I think Data just doesn't LIKE to use contractions.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
That contraction idea was extremely silly. It's one of the easiest things to do. There are just so many combinations of words that can be contracted, and since he knows grammar, he knows where to put the contractions. Was that really the best they could come up with? Is he REALLY incapable of using "ISN'T" instead of "IS NOT"? Is he really that stupid? I wouldn't trust such a machine with anything.
Yes, it is very silly. Basically, contractions are Data's kryptonite.
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