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Old January 11 2013, 10:48 PM   #16
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Re: Uses of the Reliant studio model in Trek

You could always do one on the Klingon BOP model, which was often used in cases where an original design had been planned, and which has such fun scaling issues.

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Old January 14 2013, 10:26 PM   #17
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Re: Uses of the Reliant studio model in Trek

Unicron wrote: View Post
You could always do one on the Klingon BOP model, which was often used in cases where an original design had been planned, and which has such fun scaling issues.
Well, for the most part there really wasn't any specific type of Klingon ship that the scriptwriters really needed, so using random K'T'inga and BoP stock footage and new BoP model shots really wasn't that big a deal (except of course for their antiquated designs, which mirrored the uses of the Excelsior, Miranda, and Oberths with Starfleet). The only two times I can think of where different ships were clearly needed was with the K'Vort class in "Yesterday's Enterprise" and the absolutely ludicrously oversized BoPs in "The Defector." The thing is, they could have easily solved both of those issues without even spending any more money: They could have re-used the Promellian ship (with a green color added in post), just like they did for Noggra's ship in DS9. Judging by the size of the ship when docked at the upper pylon, that ship is huge. And one could even get away with saying that the model even looks vaguely like a Klingon ship.
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Old January 23 2013, 07:47 PM   #18
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Re: Uses of the Reliant studio model in Trek

I think it's safe to say that in the case of the Miranda, Oberth, Excelsior, and probably a few others, ships would be continued to be built well into the 24th century.

On top of that, Starfleet seems to build a lot of its ships to last: The Constellation-class Hathaway was 80 years old. The Miranda class Lantree was at least that old herself, judging from her registry and fact that she was listed on Operation Retrieve in ST6. (By contrast, the carrier Enterprise, just retired, is fifty years old, older than any ship in the US navy except the Constitution, and was originally designed for a service only half that that).

In other words, I don't find anything wrong with vessels of these classes with higher designations, most of the time. (One exception would be the Melbourne in "Emissary", with his 6xxxx registry, which is more suited to the Nebula-class it was originally supposed to be).

And I think you gotta cut them a LITTLE slack in terms of reusing models. They're pretty darn expensive and time-consuming to make (money and time being two things you never have enough of on a TV series). Ideally, for example, I would've liked a new design for the Bozeman, but this was a class specifically said to be retired 80 years ago. How much mileage would they really have gotten out of it on TNG or DS9?

No, the refit Constitution was never used on any of the shows (apart from a kitbash in the Wolf 359 scene that few people would spot on their own), but I wonder if it wasn't simply a case of not wanting to use the "hero ship" from the movies on the show (just as we never saw any Sovereigns fighting in any Dominion War battle scenes).

Moreover, I think they were pretty good at introducing some new designs in later years. Besides our hero ships (Defiant, Voyager, and the big "E"), we got the various First Contact ships (especially the Akira), the Centaur, the Prometheus, the Dauntless (sort of), and the Equinox.
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Old January 24 2013, 06:09 PM   #19
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Re: Uses of the Reliant studio model in Trek

t_smitts wrote: View Post
I think it's safe to say that in the case of the Miranda, Oberth, Excelsior, and probably a few others, ships would be continued to be built well into the 24th century.
True, but probably not right up to TNG, which is what is implied with the Oberth class.

On top of that, Starfleet seems to build a lot of its ships to last: The Constellation-class Hathaway was 80 years old. The Miranda class Lantree was at least that old herself, judging from her registry and fact that she was listed on Operation Retrieve in ST6. (By contrast, the carrier Enterprise, just retired, is fifty years old, older than any ship in the US navy except the Constitution, and was originally designed for a service only half that that).
Agreed that ships were built to last. But that wasn't quite what I was arguing. My point was: Why continue to construct outdated ship designs when other, more advanced ship designs were being constructed and built at the same time? One doesn't build Ford Model-Ts and Ford Focuses concurrently.

In other words, I don't find anything wrong with vessels of these classes with higher designations, most of the time. (One exception would be the Melbourne in "Emissary", with his 6xxxx registry, which is more suited to the Nebula-class it was originally supposed to be).
There are actually two instances of Excelsiors being used in place of more advanced ships: the aforementioned Melbourne, and the Crazy Horse (listed as a Cheyenne class ship in the Encyclopedia, but later shown to be a Hood-stock footage-Excelsior, and the 5XXXX registry was not changed).

And I think you gotta cut them a LITTLE slack in terms of reusing models. They're pretty darn expensive and time-consuming to make (money and time being two things you never have enough of on a TV series). Ideally, for example, I would've liked a new design for the Bozeman, but this was a class specifically said to be retired 80 years ago. How much mileage would they really have gotten out of it on TNG or DS9?
Actually, the original rationale for not building other Starfleet ship models was that the producers didn't want to spend any more money on them if the show ended up getting cancelled after one or two seasons. That's a bit different than saying that they just didn't have the money. They certainly had the money to build things like the space jellyfish ship, the Edo God, the Ferengi Marauder, the Terellian ship, the Atlec ship, the Romulan Warbird, and the Pakled ship. As for the Bozeman, see next quote.

No, the refit Constitution was never used on any of the shows (apart from a kitbash in the Wolf 359 scene that few people would spot on their own), but I wonder if it wasn't simply a case of not wanting to use the "hero ship" from the movies on the show (just as we never saw any Sovereigns fighting in any Dominion War battle scenes).
The Connie refit in BoBW wasn't a kitbash - it was the actual feature film model used for the Enterprise's destruction in Star Trek III. And your "hero ship" hypothesis notwithstanding, I'm still not sure why the VFX guys didn't simply use the refit as the Bozeman, if they originally wanted to use a Constitution class ship anyway.
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Old January 24 2013, 06:16 PM   #20
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Re: Uses of the Reliant studio model in Trek

This is less sure, but the Atlantis from "Conspiracy" might have been an Excelsior-class Starship. This is based on the fact that a diagram of this class appeared in the mission orders for this ship. Well, anyway, this ship had a registry of NCC-72007. So, it's possible that Starfleet was still making these ships as late as the 2360s.

DS9 had the opportunity, when they switched to CGI, to create new ship classes for the battle sequences. Instead, they simply created new models out of the existing models and added a few designs from ILM. So, there must have been a reason, other than budget, that the producers decided to reuse the old models.
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Old January 24 2013, 06:38 PM   #21
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Re: Uses of the Reliant studio model in Trek

throwback wrote: View Post
This is less sure, but the Atlantis from "Conspiracy" might have been an Excelsior-class Starship. This is based on the fact that a diagram of this class appeared in the mission orders for this ship. Well, anyway, this ship had a registry of NCC-72007. So, it's possible that Starfleet was still making these ships as late as the 2360s.
I wouldn't put too much stock in those Conspiracy displays. The diagrams used were just random images that had no connection to the text. Two other diagrams, completely different from the Excelsior, also appear under the Atlantis entry. Plus, the ship's registry on the Starship Deploy Status chart is 32710.

DS9 had the opportunity, when they switched to CGI, to create new ship classes for the battle sequences. Instead, they simply created new models out of the existing models and added a few designs from ILM. So, there must have been a reason, other than budget, that the producers decided to reuse the old models.
There was. ILM was ordered to give up all their CGI models used in First Contact to Paramount for remapping. This included not only the three new designs (minus the Norway, as the CGI mesh was lost), but also Nebula and Miranda low-poly models used in the film, which was why we see them in the DS9 fleet scenes. As to why we also see the Excelsior, that was because they had easy access to Greg Jein's model built for VOY's "Flashback" and could scan it into a CGI model (which is also why we don't see any Ent-B-type refitted Excelsiors as CGI models).

So it was easier to remap all the FC models and scan Jein's Excelsior than to create all new CGI designs. However, this brings up an interesting thought: If DS9 is ever remastered in HD, will all those CGI fleet scenes have to be redone? And if they are redone, will the same ship designs be used?
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Old January 24 2013, 08:01 PM   #22
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Re: Uses of the Reliant studio model in Trek

^^^ Good question, as they were pretty spectacular to begin with. I am still in awe when I happen to see some of those scenes from Sacrifice of Angels with the two tumbling Mirandas burning up with all kinds of other carnage going on.
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Old January 24 2013, 08:38 PM   #23
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Re: Uses of the Reliant studio model in Trek

One doesn't build Ford Model-Ts and Ford Focuses concurrently.
...But one would keep on building things that look like Colt 1911 or Police Special for a century or two, while OTOH moving on from the Lee-Enfield to the SA80.

...later shown to be a Hood-stock footage-Excelsior, and the 5XXXX registry was not changed
Nor made canonical, thankfully.

the Atlantis from "Conspiracy" might have been an Excelsior-class Starship
Or a Lotus Flower class one, for that matter. Again a noncombatant design that could remain in production unchanged for centuries because the "threat environment" doesn't change. What worked in the 2270s should work in the 2370s, too, barring new propulsion concepts, all-new logistics strategies or major changes in the astrographical scope of operations.

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Old January 24 2013, 08:50 PM   #24
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Re: Uses of the Reliant studio model in Trek

Timo wrote: View Post
But one would keep on building things that look like Colt 1911 or Police Special for a century or two, while OTOH moving on from the Lee-Enfield to the SA80.
You're comparing a gun to an automobile (or a starship)?
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Old January 24 2013, 08:59 PM   #25
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Re: Uses of the Reliant studio model in Trek

Yes.

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Old January 24 2013, 11:45 PM   #26
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Re: Uses of the Reliant studio model in Trek

Dukhat wrote: View Post
DS9 had the opportunity, when they switched to CGI, to create new ship classes for the battle sequences. Instead, they simply created new models out of the existing models and added a few designs from ILM. So, there must have been a reason, other than budget, that the producers decided to reuse the old models.
There was. ILM was ordered to give up all their CGI models used in First Contact to Paramount for remapping. This included not only the three new designs (minus the Norway, as the CGI mesh was lost), but also Nebula and Miranda low-poly models used in the film, which was why we see them in the DS9 fleet scenes. As to why we also see the Excelsior, that was because they had easy access to Greg Jein's model built for VOY's "Flashback" and could scan it into a CGI model (which is also why we don't see any Ent-B-type refitted Excelsiors as CGI models).
It would have been nice if they could have digitally kitbashed the Galaxy model they had into some of the Wolf 359 kitbash configurations, like the New Orleans, Cheyenne, and Springfield.
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Old January 25 2013, 01:14 AM   #27
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Re: Uses of the Reliant studio model in Trek

Timo wrote: View Post
Yes.
And...those are two entirely different things.

B.J. wrote: View Post
It would have been nice if they could have digitally kitbashed the Galaxy model they had into some of the Wolf 359 kitbash configurations, like the New Orleans, Cheyenne, and Springfield.
Yes, that would have been fantastic. Instead, we see Starfleet fighting a war with the Dominion with fleets primarily composed of out-of-date ships. No wonder they almost lost.
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Old January 25 2013, 06:34 PM   #28
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Re: Uses of the Reliant studio model in Trek

Dukhat wrote: View Post

Yes, that would have been fantastic. Instead, we see Starfleet fighting a war with the Dominion with fleets primarily composed of out-of-date ships. No wonder they almost lost.
I seriously doubt that the storyline placing Starfleet in a situation of near defeat was based around the studios re-use of TMP era models!

I think it all it boiled down those models being cost effective cannon fodder, and it allowed bland unimaginative ships (imo) like the Defiant etc to stand out and look good.

The stand off between the Lakota with all the latest 24th century trimmings still on the verge of being destroyed by a small scout ship just reeks of Berman and Braga's petty underhanded dismissal of the TOS/TMP era.
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Old January 25 2013, 07:15 PM   #29
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Re: Uses of the Reliant studio model in Trek

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I seriously doubt that the storyline placing Starfleet in a situation of near defeat was based around the studios re-use of TMP era models!
Yes, I know that. As I wrote in my essays, there's usually no correlation between a ship in the script and what type of model was used to represent that ship, unless there was a specific description (i.e. a ship newer and more advanced than the Enterprise-D, for example).

I think it all it boiled down those models being cost effective cannon fodder, and it allowed bland unimaginative ships (imo) like the Defiant etc to stand out and look good.
It was cost-effective in that ILM's FC models were available, and Jein's Excelsior was available to be scanned, as opposed to creating new designs from scratch. How the ships looked compared to the Defiant had nothing to do with it.

The stand off between the Lakota with all the latest 24th century trimmings still on the verge of being destroyed by a small scout ship just reeks of Berman and Braga's petty underhanded dismissal of the TOS/TMP era.
Not quite sure what your B&B bashing means here. The Enterprise-B model was used for the Lakota because, as usual, it was deemed cheaper to reuse an older model than to build a new one. They also wanted an older ship per the script saying that the Excelsior shouldn't have as much weaponry as it does, because of it's upgrade. They weren't "dismissing" TOS/TMP.
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Old January 26 2013, 04:30 AM   #30
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Re: Uses of the Reliant studio model in Trek

I think the starships were subject to the demands of plot. The Voyager, one of the Federation's newest ships built to specifications acquired from battling the Borg, was consistently bested in combat by less advanced ships in the Delta Quadrant.

I don't have an issue with the older classes being used in the Dominion War. I do have an issue with them being used in the front line. And, I do have issues with Starfleet having to kitbash ships.
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