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Old January 10 2013, 10:16 PM   #16
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
There are only two requirements for Federation membership: One world government, and no caste-based discrimination. A world that is ruled by a monarchy would qualify, as long as it satisfied those two things.
I agree with that, though I would assume that horrible sentient rights abuses would also disqualify them.
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Old January 10 2013, 10:42 PM   #17
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

RPJOB wrote: View Post
Ardana in The Cloud Minders defiantly had a caste based system and it was very discriminatory yet the planet was a Federation member.
Did anyone even know about the situation with the Troglytes until Kirk and crew showed up there?
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Old January 10 2013, 10:49 PM   #18
tighr
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

Timo wrote: View Post
What we know about opposition to caste systems is this specific phrase by Sisko:

"You realize that caste-based discrimination goes against the Federation Charter. If Bajor returns to the D'jarra system, I have no doubt that its petition to join the Federation will be rejected."
Sure, Bajor's system or the discrimination practiced within it might be of a particularly damning type. But Sisko makes it appear more generic than that, that is, all discrimination that is based on caste is frowned upon in the UFP. Caste systems that don't discriminate may be fine, though.
I think in this context, the difference between a caste system and a class system is that Bajor's D'jarra system was based solely on what your family name was. Family name is Kira? Congratulations, you're an artisan. Can't sculpt worth shit? Not my problem.

A Class system would imply that you are capable of moving up and down between the classes based on your level education or earned wealth, and that movement between classes is not restricted. Can't sculpt worth shit? Better find something else to do, because you're not making it in this society as an artist.
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Old January 10 2013, 11:23 PM   #19
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

Timo wrote: View Post
Our evidence for a (British? Australian? Dutch? Indian? Malesian? South Italian? Texan?) Royal Navy.
The South shall rise again.

And of course, I mean the Italian South.

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Old January 11 2013, 12:30 AM   #20
T'Girl
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Did anyone even know about the situation with the Troglytes until Kirk and crew showed up there?
Spock knew of their existence. The situation with the group called "The Disruptors" seemed to be a surprise

tighr wrote: View Post
A Class system would imply that you are capable of moving up and down between the classes ...
It also implies that you can move sideways within your own class, something as I understand it you can't do with a caste system.

Droxine said that the Troglytes did the mining, but also they tilled the soil. So they're not all miners, some are farmers. If a young person has the option of farming, mining or some other occupation, then there is no caste system. At least not for them. And while a member of the aristocracy might have invented the anti-gravity devise that holds Stratos in the sky, I doubt the aristocracy actually built the city. The Troglytes, or different "middle class" professional class?
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Old January 11 2013, 02:29 AM   #21
The Overlord
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
There are only two requirements for Federation membership: One world government, and no caste-based discrimination. A world that is ruled by a monarchy would qualify, as long as it satisfied those two things.
Pretty sure there are more requirements then that. A Stalinist dictatorship would not have a caste system, but I do think a poor civil rights record in general would be frowned upon by the Federation.

I doubt the Cardassian Union would be allowed into the Federation, when it was still a military dictatorship. As seen with "The Drumhead" the Federation has some Bill or Charter of Rights and I think a government that hasn't willing to adopt those rights wouldn't be allowed in.
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Old January 11 2013, 02:49 AM   #22
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

The Federation's rules and morals are whatever they say in that moment to make themselves look good politically and get what they want. It's that simple. The disparity in treatment between Bajor and Ardana is an excellent example of that.
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Old January 11 2013, 05:02 AM   #23
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

There does seem to be a pretty thin line between 'Respecting the traditions of another culture' and tolerating atrocities. The Federation didn't intervene on Bajor but they sure showed up and offered their support once the Bajorans had already won.

But I wouldn't be as cynical about this as you, Ghemor. The Federation would not openly tolerate slavery or systems where people are treated as unequal totally based on where they were born. There are several cases where they ignore their political best interest based on values.
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Old January 11 2013, 08:14 AM   #24
RPJOB
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
"You realize that caste-based discrimination goes against the Federation Charter."
Sisko doesn't say that the Federation Charter prohibits caste-based systems, but specifically caste-based discrimination.

So, if the Federation doesn't consider your particular castes to be discriminatory (because they need your zenite), then you can have castes in your society all you want.
An excellent point. How would the Federation handle a cast based system based on biological differences such as the Tholians? What about a psionic hive mind where the strongest psi gets you a stronger vote within the group mind? We know the Federation has been referred to as a democracy but we don't know enough about it's structure to determine if it's just the council or if there's a larger body like the General Assembly of the UN. What we saw in TVH may be the equivalent of the UN Security Council. We did see representatives of the founding races but not a lot of others. It could be that The founders have a veto and essentially run things with other planets having a voice and a vote but no veto power. We don't even know how the representatives are chosen. T'Pau was said to have turned down a seat. It sounds like she was essentially appointed, not elected unless Vulcan has write in candidates. It would be illogical to select someone without knowing if they would accept.
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Old January 11 2013, 08:26 AM   #25
Timo
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

There are several cases where they ignore their political best interest based on values.
I'd rather think the key difference here would be found in a basic element of representative democracy: you can only have an influence during elections, not between them. Ardana was already a member; Bajor was undergoing a selection process. Only the latter situation would allow for the sort of blackmail that makes democracy work.

Spock knew of their existence. The situation with the group called "The Disruptors" seemed to be a surprise
Spock apparently thought of that situation as a recent development once informed of it, and nothing in the episode indicated otherwise, either.

So perhaps the other situation, the general dissatisfaction of the Troglytes in their lot, is also a recent development? And by extension, perhaps the zenite gas exposure and its related woes are new things, too. Possibly there was less mining previously; possibly the demand for zenite specifically only emerged recently, and old mining procedures that used to be perfectly safe for the Troglytes did not work on the new material at all.

Note that zenite is only found on Ardana and nowhere else - yet the Stratosians keep none of the stuff in stock! It is only mined as a direct response to the crisis on Merak II, apparently. Possibly this is the very first time it has been mined at all (or, to acknowledge the Federation knowledge about the potency of zenite, the second or third time, but the previous times were long, long ago), and the Merak crisis is the root cause of the sudden suffering of the Troglytes.

How sudden, we don't know. The Merak crisis need not have cropped up overnight, and the fight against the plague may have lasted for years already, the zenite mining having been going on for months, and Kirk's courier mission is a carefully scheduled rather than unanticipated one (which is why even the Troglytes are so well informed about it).

Sure, Plasus speaks of "centuries of evolution" having proven that the Trogytes have no potential and deserve no better. But Plasus might be speaking the objective truth there, the Troglytes indeed being a "lower life form" - yet their suffering might still be a very recent thing, a development Plasus' regime is taking joyful advantage of. The preceding High Advisor, a few years back, might not have enjoyed the circumstances yet.

Troglyte life may have been quite idyllic back when Kirk and Spock previously visited this planet... And since the teaser indicates that high warp is called for to reach Ardana, and since Spock has been unable to revisit despite his desire to do so, we could assume outsiders from the Federation heartlands seldom visit Ardana. Hell, outsiders seldom visited Deneva, either - an entire year of complete silence was not considered worth checking up on! Quite possibly, we are only seeing a particularly repulsive Stratosian at the office of High Advisor at a particularly dire moment in Ardanan history, and the two-layer societal structure is otherwise a palatable one by general UFP standards.

How would the Federation handle a cast based system based on biological differences such as the Tholians?
For all we know, Ardana is one. Zenite might simply exaggerate an already existing difference between the two population groups, and this "natural" difference (without zenite influence) might also be but the result of different living conditions, nutrition etc., but that doesn't mean that the biological differences would be any less real - or that the UFP would be obligated to eliminate them by artificial means, such as by forcing every Ardanan on an identical diet.

Just as an aside, the one-city nature of the planet sort of suggests that this is actually a colony (possibly a human one from Earth) that simply has a few centuries of history of isolation behind it, rather than an indigenous society on a planet possessing a full, natural ecosystem. Plasus quoting "centuries of evolution" as opposed to "millions of years" is suggestive as well... But this doesn't mean that every colonist would be obligated to an identical lifestyle or biology.

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Old January 11 2013, 08:28 AM   #26
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
But I wouldn't be as cynical about this as you, Ghemor. The Federation would not openly tolerate slavery or systems where people are treated as unequal totally based on where they were born. There are several cases where they ignore their political best interest based on values.
Oh, really? They tolerate it every day they call the Klingons their most valued allies yet fail completely to call the Klingons out on the conquests and enslavements that they carry out.
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Old January 11 2013, 08:37 AM   #27
Timo
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

To be fair, we never really hear of Klingon conquests or enslavements. Either our heroes thwart such Klingon plans, or the Klingons oppress peoples the UFP wants oppressed as well, such as the Dominion or the Cardassians.

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Old January 11 2013, 09:12 AM   #28
RPJOB
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

kuvesa tokhesa - "I serve willingly." A willing servitor. The Federation may translate Kuve as slave but the Klingons seem to have a more nuanced version. The conquered planets serve the Empire. If they rebell then action would be taken against them. Kor seemed willing to let the Organians continue to live much as they had as long as they behaved themselves. He on;y ordered the group of hostages killed after Kirk & Spock decided that the Organians shouldn't be able to decide for themselves how to deal with the Klingon occupation. It's not like Kor beamed down and started slaughtering people just to make a point.

KOR: Good honest hatred. Very refreshing. However, it makes no difference whether you welcome me or not. I am here and will stay. You are now subjects of the Klingon Empire. You'll find there are many rules and regulations. They will be posted. Violation of the smallest of them will be punished by death.
AYELBORNE: We shall obey your regulations, Commander.
And

KOR: From this day on, no public assemblages of more than three people. All publications to be cleared through this office. Neighbourhood controls will be established, hostages selected. A somewhat lengthy list of crimes against the state.
Basically, don't make waves. Harsh by human standards but nor mad dog crazy either. How do you think the Afghans and Iraqis were treated just after the war started? I'm sure there were various regulations put in place as well.
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Old January 11 2013, 10:02 AM   #29
Timo
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

The conquered planets serve the Empire. If they rebell then action would be taken against them.
Yet the thing is, there are no examples of this really happening. Klingon designs on Organia were thwarted. Krios was never indicated to be anything but a Klingon colony. No members of species other than the "one and only" Klingons ever served aboard Klingon ships or installations (evident now that the forehead thing was finally sorted out). Etc.

The Son'a had subjugated races in their servitude. The Grand Nagus had alien servants. Kirk had an alien lackey, Picard had dozens at least. The Klingons? They only ever served each other! And aliens within the Empire only served prison sentences...

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Old January 11 2013, 04:59 PM   #30
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Re: Monarchy within the Federation.

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
They tolerate it every day they call the Klingons their most valued allies yet fail completely to call the Klingons out on the conquests and enslavements that they carry out.
Who says they fail to call them out? They pretty clearly condemned the Klingon invasion of Cardassia. For all we know, the Federation is working very hard to change the Klingons' ways through diplomacy, cultural influence and "soft power". (Besides, the original point was that they wouldn't tolerate it within the Federation.)
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