RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,846
Posts: 5,474,197
Members: 25,040
Currently online: 489
Newest member: Space Tennis

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Covenant
By: Michelle on Nov 22

Two Official Starships Collection Previews
By: T'Bonz on Nov 21

Saldana: Women Issues In Hollywood
By: T'Bonz on Nov 21

Shatner Book Kickstarter
By: T'Bonz on Nov 20

Trek Original Series Slippers
By: T'Bonz on Nov 19

Hemsworth Is Sexiest Man Alive
By: T'Bonz on Nov 19

Trek Business Card Cases
By: T'Bonz on Nov 17

February IDW Publishing Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Nov 17

Retro Review: The Siege of AR-558
By: Michelle on Nov 15

Trevco Full Bleed Uniform T-Shirts
By: T'Bonz on Nov 14


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 9 2013, 01:08 AM   #106
hmcindie
Cadet
 
Re: Season THREE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
In regard to the supposedly "incorrect" framing of "Sins of the Father" I can't possibly find fault with it, especially since it is the only correct framing during this entire BD release that represents the DP's original intentions because he expected the areas outside the safe action frame to be cropped by the overscan of our 4:3 tube television sets, then.
And probably about 98% of lcd-televisions still overscan 5%. So you end up double zooming.

Everything is always framed with the whole 4:3 area, they do not use CRT-tubes when filming with film. They do know that a bit of the area is cropped but they will stay within the safe area of the whole image. Same thing with every film as a lot of matting is always a bit more than what the viewfinders showed. But a professional crew will not care about that but protect the whole area.
hmcindie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9 2013, 10:32 AM   #107
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Season THREE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

hmcindie wrote: View Post
"And probably about 98% of lcd-televisions still overscan 5%. So you end up double zooming."
A mediocre flat screen that has no controls to allow a 1:1 pixel mapping display (inevitable to make sure you the see the optimal picture resolution) / to allow its owner to switch off the overscan, will crop off extra areas the DP of "Sins of the Father" wanted you to see, that's correct.

But that's a problem of the consumer who made an ill-fated purchase decision. For all of us, that do care about optimal program presentation we're basically getting the "finger". IMHO, and I've been told that's supposedly the common Blu-ray standard, what's on the disc (the source) should contain the optimal presentation and framing, regardless of what your display can or can't do!

hmcindie wrote: View Post
"Everything is always framed with the whole 4:3 area, they do not use CRT-tubes when filming with film. They do know that a bit of the area is cropped but they will stay within the safe area of the whole image. Same thing with every film as a lot of matting is always a bit more than what the viewfinders showed. But a professional crew will not care about that but protect the whole area."
So are you saying Corey Allen (RIP) was not a professional DP?
In one of the first scenes in "Encounter at Farpoint" we - NOW - clearly see a piece of stray carpet near Data's bridge console (i.e. on a flat screen without overscan aka 1:1 pixel mapping)

And there are many more of those items in the expendable overscan areas of the "whole 4:3 area" that either are still there or have been removed by CGI brush or zooming up (!!!) the previous holy 4:3 area resulting in an additional crop (e.g. overhead microphone in engineering in "Where No One Has Gone Before").

The DPs of TNG understood very well how the overscan of a 4:3 TV set, then, worked. This is proven by the fact that none of us (especially "chief nitpicker" Phil Farrand) was able to notice this crap in the expendable overscan areas as long as we watched or TNG broadcasts, tapes, laserdiscs or DVDs on a 4:3 TV tube set with overscan.

Why protect an area of the picture you know is not going to make it to the audience because the 4:3 TV's overscan will crop it off?

Unfortunately, while claiming to preserve the original DP's vision / intention, the people in charge of the restoration at CBS either didn't understand overscan or chose to ignore it (because fans that have seen the DVDs on flat screens with no overscan would have complained instantly that parts of the picture were missing - which is exactly what happened after "Sins of the Father" had become available on the Next Level teaser Blu-ray disc).

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9 2013, 02:24 PM   #108
Tosk
Rear Admiral
 
Tosk's Avatar
 
Location: On the run.
Re: Season THREE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
In one of the first scenes in "Encounter at Farpoint" we - NOW - clearly see a piece of stray carpet near Data's bridge console (i.e. on a flat screen without overscan aka 1:1 pixel mapping)
Sorry, but that carpet was always visible. So no luck there.

Tosk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9 2013, 11:19 PM   #109
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Season THREE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Tosk wrote: View Post
Sorry, but that carpet was always visible. So no luck there.

This is a shot directly taken from your 4:3 tube TV set?!?

Well, that piece of carpet does not show on up on my 4:3 TV but "now" in HD and on a flat screen with no overscan it definitely does.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9 2013, 11:28 PM   #110
Tosk
Rear Admiral
 
Tosk's Avatar
 
Location: On the run.
Re: Season THREE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

I misunderstood. I thought your adamant "NOW" meant the Blu-ray as opposed to the DVDs.
Tosk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10 2013, 12:24 AM   #111
Maxwell Everett
Commodore
 
Maxwell Everett's Avatar
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Re: Season THREE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
But that's a problem of the consumer who made an ill-fated purchase decision. For all of us, that do care about optimal program presentation we're basically getting the "finger". IMHO, and I've been told that's supposedly the common Blu-ray standard, what's on the disc (the source) should contain the optimal presentation and framing, regardless of what your display can or can't do!
You could've made a similar argument back in 1987. Demand that the guys over at The Post Group deliver the show on tape with only the action safe area visible (no overscan)... and just tell the public, "Hey, you want to see the area we intended you to see? Then you should have bought a professional underscan monitor that allows you to fit all of our picture into the visible part of your cathode ray tube. You made an ill-fated purchase decision."

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
So are you saying Corey Allen (RIP) was not a professional DP?
Yes! He was not a professional director of photography. He was an actor and director.
__________________
"Shake off all the fears & servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion." -Thomas Jefferson
Maxwell Everett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10 2013, 12:17 PM   #112
Salinga
Captain
 
Salinga's Avatar
 
Re: Season THREE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
A mediocre flat screen that has no controls to allow a 1:1 pixel mapping display (inevitable to make sure you the see the optimal picture resolution) / to allow its owner to switch off the overscan, will crop off extra areas the DP of "Sins of the Father" wanted you to see, that's correct. But that's a problem of the consumer who made an ill-fated purchase decision.
No.

The overscan area is not a safe invisible area. It can be fully visible, partly or not visible, since already back then every TV set/video format handled that differently. The director has to shoot like it is fully visible, but he is allowed to place objects there, that are not necessarily important, but this area cannot be shot like it is about to completly cut away. Everything else is a wrong decision.
Salinga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10 2013, 07:21 PM   #113
jimbotron
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: Season THREE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

This reminds me of when some filmmakers would compose shots with the eventual pan-and-scan VHS in mind. It would be a 2.35:1 frame, but the important parts (like the actor's heads) are in just one half of the screen, and the sides are extraneous.

It really dumbed down cinematography in the 80s/90s.
jimbotron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10 2013, 07:28 PM   #114
LOKAI of CHERON
Commodore
 
LOKAI of CHERON's Avatar
 
Location: Post-apocalyptic ruins of my once mighty Homeworld.
Re: Season THREE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

jimbotron wrote: View Post
This reminds me of when some filmmakers would compose shots with the eventual pan-and-scan VHS in mind. It would be a 2.35:1 frame, but the important parts (like the actor's heads) are in just one half of the screen, and the sides are extraneous.

It really dumbed down cinematography in the 80s/90s.
Could you give an example/s of any movies you think were shot in that way?
__________________
YOU MONOTONE HUMANS ARE ALL ALIKE... FIRST YOU CONDEMN, THEN ATTACK.
LOKAI of CHERON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10 2013, 08:13 PM   #115
FrontierTrek
Fleet Captain
 
FrontierTrek's Avatar
 
Location: TrekCore.com
View FrontierTrek's Twitter Profile
Re: Season THREE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

We have the first part of a special interview with Robert Meyer Burnett who - along with Roger Lay - is responsible for the TNG Bonus features.

Great stuff about Season 2, hints on Season 3, stuff to come in further seasons and more!

http://tng.trekcore.com/bluray/01092...rburnett1.html

Enjoy! In the second part tomorrow, lots more info on Season 3!
__________________
www.TrekCore.com :: The Net's LARGEST Trek Multimedia Site
Over 450,000 Trek DVD & Blu-Ray Caps from EVERY episode/movie!
FrontierTrek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10 2013, 10:24 PM   #116
Savage Dragon
TheSeeker
 
Savage Dragon's Avatar
 
Location: New York, NY
Re: Season THREE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

That was great! Hats off to Roger Lay Jr. for taking a chance and filming bonus feature stuff even before it was approved!
Savage Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10 2013, 11:21 PM   #117
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Season THREE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Maxwell Everett wrote: View Post
You could've made a similar argument back in 1987. Demand that the guys over at The Post Group deliver the show on tape with only the action safe area visible (no overscan)... and just tell the public, "Hey, you want to see the area we intended you to see? Then you should have bought a professional underscan monitor that allows you to fit all of our picture into the visible part of your cathode ray tube. You made an ill-fated purchase decision.
I'd say there is a vast difference between 1987 (when the majority of the audience - 98%? - owned consumer grade CRTs with overscan) and 2012, where we have increasing large numbers of consumer-grade HD displays with 1:1 pixel mapping / no overscan and a superior consumer hardware quality awareness.

So what does this piece of carpet tell us?

That Corey Allen was a bad director because he didn't pay attention to that piece of carpet in the overscan zone or that he was a good director because he knew that this production oddity would't be noticed by 98% of the audience because they couldn't see it on their CRT TVs?

I honestly had decided to remove myself entirely from the framing debate but when I noticed that people are complaining again about a supposedly "incorrect" presentation of "Sins of the Father" (correct as the framing matches what most saw on their 4:3 CRT TVs and just seem to have forgotten) I couldn't sit still.

Hope your beautiful and Andrew Probert sanctioned 16:9 enhancement of the Starbase 74 docking scene matte painting will make it into a future, corresponding release.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 11 2013, 01:05 AM   #118
Maxwell Everett
Commodore
 
Maxwell Everett's Avatar
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Re: Season THREE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
So what does this piece of carpet tell us?

That Corey Allen was a bad director because he didn't pay attention to that piece of carpet in the overscan zone or that he was a good director because he knew that this production oddity would't be noticed by 98% of the audience because they couldn't see it on their CRT TVs?
He was a good director, but the fact that the carpet was laid on top of wires or some other visible object that wasn't supposed to be there strongly implies that either he, his director of photography Edward R. Brown or camera operator Lowell Peterson noticed it and asked for the carpet to be placed over them. If they truly didn't care about the overscan area, they never would have bothered.
__________________
"Shake off all the fears & servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion." -Thomas Jefferson
Maxwell Everett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 11 2013, 02:43 PM   #119
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Season THREE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Maxwell Everett wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
So what does this piece of carpet tell us?

That Corey Allen was a bad director because he didn't pay attention to that piece of carpet in the overscan zone or that he was a good director because he knew that this production oddity would't be noticed by 98% of the audience because they couldn't see it on their CRT TVs?
He was a good director, but the fact that the carpet was laid on top of wires or some other visible object that wasn't supposed to be there strongly implies that either he, his director of photography Edward R. Brown or camera operator Lowell Peterson noticed it and asked for the carpet to be placed over them. If they truly didn't care about the overscan area, they never would have bothered.
Winner!
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 11 2013, 08:29 PM   #120
GalaxyX
Rear Admiral
 
GalaxyX's Avatar
 
Location: Canada
Re: Season THREE OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

NewHorizon wrote: View Post
trekker670 wrote: View Post
Has there been a fan edit of the scenes in question?
Not that I've scene, but I wonder how that would fit? There is some pretty fancy stuff going on in that DS9 footage. Would it mesh properly within S3 TNG?
That would be seriously kick ass if they did that.

I'm sure it could be edited to mesh quite well if they wanted to.

I doubt it will happen.
__________________
Top Gear America: Jay Leno, Adam Carolla, Tim Allen. DONE!
GalaxyX is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
remastered

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:14 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.