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Old January 9 2013, 07:25 PM   #31
TJ Sinclair
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

Ever since Rising Son, I've wanted to see the crew of the Even Odds again. The thought of Taran'atar hooking up with them is very enticing.
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Old January 9 2013, 07:41 PM   #32
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

TJ Sinclair wrote: View Post
Ever since Rising Son, I've wanted to see the crew of the Even Odds again. The thought of Taran'atar hooking up with them is very enticing.
If the DS9 timegap is covered, we're sure to find out about the so-called 'Even Odds desaster'...
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Old January 9 2013, 08:44 PM   #33
Lee Son of Pete
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

TJ Sinclair wrote: View Post
Ever since Rising Son, I've wanted to see the crew of the Even Odds again. The thought of Taran'atar hooking up with them is very enticing.
I agree wholeheartedly, would love to see both the crew and Taran'atar,though I'm guessing old age would be getting Taran'atar soon in any case.

I'd particularly like a scene with Taran'atar and Q.
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Old January 10 2013, 02:21 AM   #34
JD
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

I loved Rising Son, and would love to see the Even Odds crew again, especially if it was post-Soul Key and included Taran'atar.
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Old January 10 2013, 07:45 AM   #35
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

Sci wrote: View Post
RPJOB wrote: View Post
zarkon wrote: View Post
Why would we hear from ross again after the events of Articles of the Federation?
Why wouldn't we? It's not like he was locked away inside an asteroid. He was forced to resign from Starfleet but it's not like they made a big deal about it, not wanting to draw attention to the reasons why. As long as he doesn't open his mouth about his part in the death of the president and the cover-up by everyone else, including the current president, he's probably just as free as anyone else.
The terms of Bacco's deal with him were that reporter Ozla Ganiv would allow him to retire -- not resign; retire -- from Starfleet and not publish her expose on what she (Ganiv) believed to be Ross's assassination of Zife (remember, Bacco and Ganiv don't know about Section 31) or his forcing of Zife's resignation at gunpoint, in return for Ross never, ever, ever having or wielding any sort of military or political influence in any way, shape, or form ever again.

In other words, the deal is that Ganiv keeps his secret and doesn't risk war with the Klingons and Bacco lets him escape justice, in return for never doing or saying anything important for as long as he lives.



Well, Section 31 might.

But, no, the point of the deal in Articles of the Federation was that Ganiv wouldn't publish her expose and therefore risk a war with the Klingon Empire. The issue was not what would they do to Ross, but would they release information that would provoke the war that Ross had Zife removed from office in order to prevent.

RPJOB wrote: View Post
JoeZhang wrote: View Post

Surely the better quote for that situation is:



I guess Picard doesn't deserve to wear that Uniform either!
Picard, Ross, Nechayev, Paris, Jellico, Nakamura. None of them do. If they did what they felt they had to do then they all should have resigned afterwards. Picards speeches ring pretty hollow now.
You are forgetting how the actual sequence of events worked:

Picard, Ross, Nechayev, Paris, Jellico, Nakamura, and the Federation Ambassador to Tezwa (whose name I can't recall) discovered that President Zife (and his COS and Secretary of Military Intelligence) had engaged in a criminal conspiracy to smuggle Federation weapons to Tezwa in violation of the terms of the Khitomer Accords, and that they had subsequently refused to warn the Enterprise or the Klingon fleet when said fleet entered Tezwa orbit, leading to thousands of Klingon deaths. Subsequently, Zife and company ordered the conquest and occupation of Tezwa, leading to millions of Tezwan deaths and thousands of Federation deaths, and engaged in a conspiracy to obstruct justice by trying to plant false evidence to implicate the Tholians and Romulans in the pulse cannons' construction.

It was Picard's, Ross's, Nechayev's, Paris's, Jellico's, Nakamura's, and the Ambassador's judgment that Zife and company's crimes were too great to allow them to get off scott-free and continue in office. But they also believed that a public airing of their crimes would empower the reactionary anti-Federation faction in Klingon politics and lead to a devastating Federation-Klingon war.

Therefore, Picard and company engaged in a conspiracy to force Zife to resign at gunpoint.

Picard and company did not engage in a conspiracy to kill Zife. Rather, Section 31 discovered that Ross was part of a conspiracy to force Zife to resign, and they took advantage of the situation; Ross conspired with Section 31 to have Zife, Azernal, and Quafina assassinated after resigning, without the prior knowledge or consent of the other members of the "resign-at-gunpoint" conspiracy.

No work has yet established if Ross agreed with or willingly participated in Section 31's assassination of Zife, Azernal, and Quafina, or if Ross was coerced into abetting their assassination.

As for how Section 31 kept Zife's death a secret -- when you think about it, it actually shouldn't be too hard to fake someone's non-death if you have Section 31's resources. Give someone cosmetic surgery now and then to make public appearances (or use a hologram); upload a few property deeds in Zife's name on some remote resort colony planet, and file an annual tax return in his name; etc. Make sure your Fake Min is on hand to use a shovel when they break ground at the Min Zife Federation Presidential Library on Bolarus.

And of course the Borg Invasion represented a perfect opportunity to just simplify everything by reporting his death in the invasion.
Even if you accept that it's legal, moral and ethical for the military to secretly remove a democratically elected President, what's to stop any of the conspirators from deciding that Bacco should also be removed from office? Who's to decide if their reasons are valid? Once you've crossed a line it's much easier to do it a second time.

If they were so sure that they were doing the right thing and removing someone from power who has engaged in illegal activities then the co-conspirators all should have resigned as well. By staying in Starfleet they simply proved themselves to be hypocrites. Zife may have broken the law but so did Picard and the rest.

If you could reveal the reasons behind Zife's resignation without risking war with the Klingons, how do you think the population of the Federation would react to Starfleet giving itself a veto over the President?
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Old January 10 2013, 06:23 PM   #36
Sci
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

RPJOB wrote: View Post
Even if you accept that it's legal, moral and ethical for the military to secretly remove a democratically elected President, what's to stop any of the conspirators from deciding that Bacco should also be removed from office? Who's to decide if their reasons are valid? Once you've crossed a line it's much easier to do it a second time.
Oh, I didn't say I thought that it was legal or moral for them to force Zife out of office. My point was to specify exactly what crimes Picard and company are guilty of vs. what crimes Section 31 and Ross are guilty of. It's important to remember that Picard and company were not aware of Section 31's plot to assassinate Zife and did not consent to such.

What I would say is this: As readers of the novels, we the audience are omniscient in a way we would not be if we were residents in this fictional universe. As such, we have the advantage of knowing the motivations and goals of the characters who removed Zife from office in a way we could never know someone's true motivations in real life; we know as an audience that the removal of Zife from office was an extraordinary action, undertaken in an attempt to bring about justice to an extraordinary criminal who would have otherwise escaped justice, and that it is not something that those characters would ever do again.

So what I think of these characters and of their behavior is radically different as an audience member vs. what I would think if I were a Federation citizen who does not have access to knowledge of their inner thoughts and goals.

If they were so sure that they were doing the right thing and removing someone from power who has engaged in illegal activities then the co-conspirators all should have resigned as well. By staying in Starfleet they simply proved themselves to be hypocrites. Zife may have broken the law but so did Picard and the rest.
I think that's a completely fair argument to make.

If you could reveal the reasons behind Zife's resignation without risking war with the Klingons, how do you think the population of the Federation would react to Starfleet giving itself a veto over the President?
Again, let's be very specific:

Starfleet did not "give itself a veto over the President." A small conspiracy of Starfleet flag officers, Picard, and the Federation Ambassador to Tezwa forcibly removed him from office, and thereafter never attempted to manipulate or control the subsequent President Pro Tempore or President. "Giving itself a veto" implies the seizure of permanent power over the presidency, and that is not what happened.

And my suspicion is that public opinion in the Federation would be divided. Some Federates would probably approve of Picard and company's actions, believing it more important to bring Zife to some sort of justice for his crimes; other Federates would probably condemn Picard and company's actions, believing that the military should never under any circumstances take any action that threatens the supremacy of the democratic government. And some may react as I do -- seeing a bit of both sides and never quite being sure what side to come down on.

(I wonder what the ultimate fates of three of the conspirators --
-- would impact public opinion. The fact that the current Starfleet C.O., Akaar, was not part of that particular conspiracy, may well affect which side most of the public comes down on.)
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Old January 10 2013, 10:44 PM   #37
Jarvisimo
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

JD wrote: View Post
I loved Rising Son, and would love to see the Even Odds crew again, especially if it was post-Soul Key and included Taran'atar.
Yes, I would add myself to this desire. Great group, great characters.

Other supporting Relaunch characters that would be good to see, or see what happened to, are Gul Macet and Linjarin.
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Old January 11 2013, 01:16 AM   #38
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

Also, based on George Takei's facebook post, I would love to know if Barry Giotto ever had more appearances in page. Actually, are TOS books consistent in their presentation of the crew seen onscreen in various positions (other than commonly used figures like M'Benga)?
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Old January 11 2013, 02:12 AM   #39
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

Jarvisimo wrote: View Post
Actually, are TOS books consistent in their presentation of the crew seen onscreen in various positions (other than commonly used figures like M'Benga)?
Not really. They've been given inconsistent first names in various works, when they've been used at all. In Forgotten History I tried to be consistent with other recent works like A Choice of Catastrophes, but there are still some contradictions among recent works; for instance, both I and ACoC give DeSalle's first name as Vincent, as did The Star Trek Concordance (presumably taken from a script), but The Sorrows of Empire gives Mirror DeSalle's first name as Michael (from the actor who played him). I tried to fudge it by calling him Vincent M. DeSalle in FH, suggesting that the Mirror version went by his middle name.

Even M'Benga hasn't been portrayed consistently; Vanguard called him Jabilo M'Benga, ignoring the precedent of '80s novels that called him Geoffrey.
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Old January 11 2013, 08:49 AM   #40
RPJOB
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

Sci wrote: View Post
RPJOB wrote: View Post
Even if you accept that it's legal, moral and ethical for the military to secretly remove a democratically elected President, what's to stop any of the conspirators from deciding that Bacco should also be removed from office? Who's to decide if their reasons are valid? Once you've crossed a line it's much easier to do it a second time.
Oh, I didn't say I thought that it was legal or moral for them to force Zife out of office. My point was to specify exactly what crimes Picard and company are guilty of vs. what crimes Section 31 and Ross are guilty of. It's important to remember that Picard and company were not aware of Section 31's plot to assassinate Zife and did not consent to such.

What I would say is this: As readers of the novels, we the audience are omniscient in a way we would not be if we were residents in this fictional universe. As such, we have the advantage of knowing the motivations and goals of the characters who removed Zife from office in a way we could never know someone's true motivations in real life; we know as an audience that the removal of Zife from office was an extraordinary action, undertaken in an attempt to bring about justice to an extraordinary criminal who would have otherwise escaped justice, and that it is not something that those characters would ever do again.

So what I think of these characters and of their behavior is radically different as an audience member vs. what I would think if I were a Federation citizen who does not have access to knowledge of their inner thoughts and goals.

If they were so sure that they were doing the right thing and removing someone from power who has engaged in illegal activities then the co-conspirators all should have resigned as well. By staying in Starfleet they simply proved themselves to be hypocrites. Zife may have broken the law but so did Picard and the rest.
I think that's a completely fair argument to make.

If you could reveal the reasons behind Zife's resignation without risking war with the Klingons, how do you think the population of the Federation would react to Starfleet giving itself a veto over the President?
Again, let's be very specific:

Starfleet did not "give itself a veto over the President." A small conspiracy of Starfleet flag officers, Picard, and the Federation Ambassador to Tezwa forcibly removed him from office, and thereafter never attempted to manipulate or control the subsequent President Pro Tempore or President. "Giving itself a veto" implies the seizure of permanent power over the presidency, and that is not what happened.

And my suspicion is that public opinion in the Federation would be divided. Some Federates would probably approve of Picard and company's actions, believing it more important to bring Zife to some sort of justice for his crimes; other Federates would probably condemn Picard and company's actions, believing that the military should never under any circumstances take any action that threatens the supremacy of the democratic government. And some may react as I do -- seeing a bit of both sides and never quite being sure what side to come down on.

(I wonder what the ultimate fates of three of the conspirators --
-- would impact public opinion. The fact that the current Starfleet C.O., Akaar, was not part of that particular conspiracy, may well affect which side most of the public comes down on.)
Actually, Picard and his coconspirators did give Starfleet a veto over the office of President. They've established a precedent. Don't forget, this is the same Starfleet that had maneuvered the President into declaring martial law on Earth just a few years earlier (Paradise Lost). You'd think that Picar and the others would have taken that as a lesson about Starfleet overstepping it bounds. Apparently not. Two incidents in less than a decade where Starfleet members put themselves above the civilian government. Layton wasn't even charged. He simply resigned, just like Zife and Ross. How many other dirty little secrets is Starfleet sitting on?
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Old January 11 2013, 03:28 PM   #41
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

^ Actually, Leyton (in Treklit) was charged and put in prison (for five years). Both Hollow Men and Articles of the Federation include references to him, indeed the former includes Sisko seeking out his imprisoned mentor.
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Old January 11 2013, 03:54 PM   #42
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

Christopher wrote: View Post
datalogan wrote: View Post
I've always wondered whatever happen to Marissa Flores, the girl that was stuck in the turbolift with Picard in TNG "Disaster".
Has she joined Starfleet and became a real "Number One" by now . . . or at least has 2 pips on her uniform?
Well, if you really want to know...

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../MarissaPicard
Holy shit, this had me rolling! I didn't know they went THIS far with those characters!
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Old January 11 2013, 04:32 PM   #43
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

Christopher wrote: View Post
datalogan wrote: View Post
I've always wondered whatever happen to Marissa Flores, the girl that was stuck in the turbolift with Picard in TNG "Disaster".
Has she joined Starfleet and became a real "Number One" by now . . . or at least has 2 pips on her uniform?
Well, if you really want to know...

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../MarissaPicard
Why was I not informed earlier about these works of unparalleled literary genius? I should read more fanfic...
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Old January 11 2013, 05:28 PM   #44
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

JD wrote: View Post
tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
I've been watching both Sherlock and Elementary lately, and the got me wondering, has anything been done with Moriarty since they stuck him in his little cube thing?
What about Tom Riker, post Dominion War? I haven't read the book, but I know he was in Imzadi II, although I believe that was either before or during the Dominion War.

I don't think anything's been mentioned (maybe the cube was destroyed in Generations) about Moriarty.
That's a shame. I was thinking all of the stuff with The Doctor and holographic rites would have been the perfect way to bring him back up somehow.
The less done about 'holographic rights' the better. It was a non-issue VOY tried to force down our throats to show they weren't only just about shooting at every alien ship they came across and Borg boobs.

What would come next? A replicator labour stoppage?
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Old January 11 2013, 06:09 PM   #45
RPJOB
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Re: whatever happened to these characters?

Jarvisimo wrote: View Post
^ Actually, Leyton (in Treklit) was charged and put in prison (for five years). Both Hollow Men and Articles of the Federation include references to him, indeed the former includes Sisko seeking out his imprisoned mentor.
And that's one interpretation of what happened afterwards. We don't know one way or the other at the end of the episode.

Also, five years seems a bit on the lenient side. Compare to what Cyrano Jones was facing.

KIRK: No, you're not. There's something I want to show you. You know what the penalty is for transporting an animal proven harmful to human life?
JONES: Captain, one little tribble isn't harmful. Captain, you wouldn't do a thing like that to me, now would you? Would you?
SPOCK: The penalty is twenty years in a rehabilitation colony.
The Federation seems to take threats to democracy in stride.
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